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Old 01-20-2019, 09:19 PM   #1
Cobra Mgr
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Article: 6 players whose HOF chances are about to end

Crime Dog, Andruw & 4 others

I've stated before how I feel McGriff has been cheated of his rightful place. Andruw was one of my absolute favorites of all time. In this modern age where defense is supposed to be more appreciated, Jones Gold Gloves plus 400 HR's should have him in. But I'm sure the "Me Too" movement will also serve to push him back. The other 4, I'm OK with them not getting in. Especially Andy Pettitte.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:38 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
Crime Dog, Andruw & 4 others

I've stated before how I feel McGriff has been cheated of his rightful place. Andruw was one of my absolute favorites of all time. In this modern age where defense is supposed to be more appreciated, Jones Gold Gloves plus 400 HR's should have him in. But I'm sure the "Me Too" movement will also serve to push him back. The other 4, I'm OK with them not getting in. Especially Andy Pettitte.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do not understand all the love for Omar Vizquel and his noodle bat, when other great defenders with far superior offensive numbers get stiffed and fall off the ballot (Andruw Jones being the latest, but certainly not the only casualty). There are a few at every position on the diamond, meanwhile very good keystone combo players (but not HoFers IMHO) like Rabbit Maranville (BBWAA), Red Schoendienst (VC), Phil Rizzuto (VC), and Bill Mazeroski (VC) are in. You can put Omar Vizquel in the same category as these guys. That for me would be the "Hell no!" category. All of them could not hit much, but their defense put them in. Meh.
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Old 01-21-2019, 12:06 AM   #3
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Couldn't they still get in by the era committee like Lee Smith and Harold Baines?
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Old 01-21-2019, 12:41 AM   #4
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Couldn't they still get in by the era committee like Lee Smith and Harold Baines?
Yep they could, but sometimes neither the VC nor the BBWAA recognize the great ones and they slip through the cracks. Hell, last year, Lou Whitaker was not even on the VC ballot when Trammell went in... What the heck does he have to do just to get consideration? Ugh.
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:46 AM   #5
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Seriously, McGriff is out because he didn't hit seven more lousy home runs. Seven. How stupid is that? I never really heard his name in connection with 'roids, so that has to be it. And yet, here we are.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:17 PM   #6
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Seriously, McGriff is out because he didn't hit seven more lousy home runs. Seven. How stupid is that? I never really heard his name in connection with 'roids, so that has to be it. And yet, here we are.
I think even with the 500 homeruns he would still be borderline, and I'm a Blue Jays fan. The PED argument does hold water, and he should get a boost for that. The rub of course, is how much of a boost? The goddamn PED guys ensured that we can never really know how he would've stacked up had he played on a level playing field. There's no doubt he was a very good player, but I'm not sure he was HoF good. Definitely on the borderline, but for me out. I would put him on a level with Tony Perez, Mark Teixeira, Norm Cash, Frank Chance, and Jason Giambi. Two of those guys are HoFers, but I don't consider any of them as mortal locks, and they wouldn't make my HoF. Just my though.
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Nothing short of everything's enough"

- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:12 PM   #7
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. I do not understand all the love for Omar Vizquel and his noodle bat, when other great defenders with far superior offensive numbers get stiffed and fall off the ballot (Andruw Jones being the latest, but certainly not the only casualty). There are a few at every position on the diamond, meanwhile very good keystone combo players (but not HoFers IMHO) like Rabbit Maranville (BBWAA), Red Schoendienst (VC), Phil Rizzuto (VC), and Bill Mazeroski (VC) are in. You can put Omar Vizquel in the same category as these guys. That for me would be the "Hell no!" category. All of them could not hit much, but their defense put them in. Meh.
Plenty of players get in for good offense and no/bad defense. Why not the other way around? They're about to elect Edgar Martinez, who literally played no defense at all for most of his career.
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:33 PM   #8
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Plenty of players get in for good offense and no/bad defense. Why not the other way around? They're about to elect Edgar Martinez, who literally played no defense at all for most of his career.
Edgar was absolutely exceptional offensively. Of all qualified hitters in the entire history of the game, he ranks 42nd in OPS+ (147), and 33rd in wRC+ (also 147). IMHO, his phenomenal bat allows him to very comfortably cross the threshold for induction, and that's even allowing for severely penalizing him for the position he played for the majority of his career. Believe it or not, he was actually a very good defensive third baseman when he came up. He was forced to DH by injuries, not by his defense.

I find it quite hypocritical that gold glove type 2B like Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, and Willie Randolph (yes, he didn't win a GG at 2B, but he probably should've won a bushel full given his fielding prowess) don't even get a sniff (all were one and dones on the BBWAA ballot) despite having far better bats than any of the five players I listed above. Chase Utley will probably face the same garbage despite being a fantastic all around player, while Robbie Cano cooked his own goose last summer.

At SS, you have two guys from way back when, who have never gotten a sniff, and at this point more than likely won't. Bill Dahlen, and Jack Glasscock (yes I know, funny name huh?) were slightly above league average hitters (none of the five light hitting middle infielders in my above post were at league average when adjusted for era, ballpark etc), and according to anything I've read on them (and the defensive metrics of the day, which are even more primitive than what we have now, but are all that we have from that time) were thought of as elite defenders. These guys haven't even gotten a sniff. Their HoF worthy (or at the very least worthy of far more consideration for said honour) careers have basically been thrown in the trash can of baseball history, while four of the five I mentioned above, and most likely Vizquel, have not only received strong consideration, but eventually with Vizquel's inevitable enshrinement, will all be in. This makes less than zero sense to me. Then there's A-Rod. Yeah, 'nuff said.

There's my five middle infielders who should be in, and should replace the five mentioned above. You can't go ripping people out of the HoF, but you can correct previous wrongs. Then again we all have our own personal visions of who should be in the HoF and who shouldn't. That's what makes this time of year, and the passionate debates it brings about, so much fun.
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- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017

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Old 01-22-2019, 11:10 PM   #9
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I want to hear the justification of the two guys who voted for Clemens but not Bonds. I mean, we all know the real reason, but what BS would they cook up?
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
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I want to hear the justification of the two guys who voted for Clemens but not Bonds. I mean, we all know the real reason, but what BS would they cook up?
Whatever it is, you can be sure that there will be plenty of mental gymnastics and logic that is chock full of chicanery.
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I'll stay till the wisteria fades
And falls on L.A.
No matter how high or how rough
Nothing short of everything's enough"

- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017
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Old 01-23-2019, 09:07 AM   #11
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Some of these guys can't make justification of their votes. I have no problem w/Rivera being a unanimous selection. I have a problem with him being the FIRST unanimous selection. 11 voters didn't select Babe Ruth. 48 didn't pick Cy Young. 36 said no to Jackie Robinson. 9 didn't include Hank Aaron. 6 said "uh-uh" to Nolan Ryan. There probably should have been 50 unanimous selections before Mariano.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Some of these guys can't make justification of their votes. I have no problem w/Rivera being a unanimous selection. I have a problem with him being the FIRST unanimous selection. 11 voters didn't select Babe Ruth. 48 didn't pick Cy Young. 36 said no to Jackie Robinson. 9 didn't include Hank Aaron. 6 said "uh-uh" to Nolan Ryan. There probably should have been 50 unanimous selections before Mariano.
I can't really get obsessed with the whole unanimous selection thingy. A HoFer is a HoFer is a HoFer, whether any of us agree that he should be or not. The only reason I was happy to see Mo get it was the reaction his family had. It was priceless, but to get close to 500 human beings to agree 100% on anything is probably a completely fruitless exercise even if it's completely logical. See round earth/flat earth, or those that believe the earth has only been around for 6,000ish years (or whatever it is) as opposed to many millions of years.
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It's still not enough
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No matter how wide or how tough
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I'll stay till the wisteria fades
And falls on L.A.
No matter how high or how rough
Nothing short of everything's enough"

- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:48 PM   #13
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I want to hear the justification of the two guys who voted for Clemens but not Bonds. I mean, we all know the real reason, but what BS would they cook up?
There was only one spot left on the ballot?
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:51 PM   #14
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I can't really get obsessed with the whole unanimous selection thingy. A HoFer is a HoFer is a HoFer, whether any of us agree that he should be or not. The only reason I was happy to see Mo get it was the reaction his family had. It was priceless, but to get close to 500 human beings to agree 100% on anything is probably a completely fruitless exercise even if it's completely logical. See round earth/flat earth, or those that believe the earth has only been around for 6,000ish years (or whatever it is) as opposed to many millions of years.
I'm reminded of when a SC justice said he couldn't define what makes something obscene, but he knows it when he sees it. I feel that way about the majority of players who are HOF's. Everyone may have their different qualifications, but at some point all of those differences merge into none w/guys like Ted Williams, Mays, Griffey, Murray, Matthewson, Feller, Jeter, Robinson (2), & Johnson (2). Anyone who can sit at their ballot & say these guys haven't earned their bust isn't being a discerning critic. He's being a...........
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:39 PM   #15
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A good place to start would be to revoke Bill Madden's voting credentials.


Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel
Curt schilling
Mariano Rivera
Placido Palanco


I don't know if that's a serrious ballot or preformance art but whatever the case, yank his credentials please.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:44 PM   #16
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I'm still trying to figure out how Andruw got half as many votes as Jeff Kent & 6x's fewer than Vizquel.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:04 AM   #17
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A good place to start would be to revoke Bill Madden's voting credentials.


Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel
Curt schilling
Mariano Rivera
Placido Palanco


I don't know if that's a serrious ballot or preformance art but whatever the case, yank his credentials please.
Please tell me that Placido Palanco is just you exaggerating?
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:36 AM   #18
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Please tell me that Placido Palanco is just you exaggerating?
I remember reading in an article in December that he voted for
Polanco because of his glovework or something like that, so no, I think its the truth.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:43 AM   #19
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I remember reading in an article in December that he voted for
Polanco because of his glovework or something like that, so no, I think its the truth.
Ah his glovework. I do admit he was great at fielding balls hit directly to him. Hardly ever made an error. Of course, the Tigers lost to the Twins in a one game playoff, because a ball was hit about a step to his right and he couldn't get to it. And if it's due to glovework this chap damn well better have voted for Lou Whitaker on every single ballot he submitted, even those he submitted in his sleep.

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Old 01-24-2019, 10:02 AM   #20
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Please tell me that Placido Palanco is just you exaggerating?
Nope. I loved Palanco as much as the next Tigers fan but whoa. Step back and consider that this guy left 5 slots on his ballot blank and look at the names that he bypassed to put Palanco in his golden five; then tell me why this guy deserves to ever vote again.
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