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Old 08-18-2013, 12:33 PM   #1
yaremchuk
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Goal/Assist Ratio and Playmaker Influence

Just a couple thoughts from the time I've spent playing around with Build 57 on my Mac. Perhaps some of the others can chime in with their thoughts on these issues as well.

It seems that when starting a new 2013-14 season, the default goal-assist ratio for most players is off, in that players do not accumulate as many assists on an equivalent number of goals as in real life.

For example, Steven Stamkos regularly posts seasons of 50+ goals and less than 20 assists. Likewise, players such as Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton and Nicklas Backstrom post stats such as 25 goals and 30-35 assists.

Now, it's one thing just to tweak the balance on that. But what I've found so far is that goal-scorers seem to drive the statistics of other linemates, while playmakers do not do the same.

For example, Teddy Purcell posted back-to-back 50+ assist seasons because he was on a line with Steven Stamkos, but the linemates of Sidney Crosby seem to score no more often than they would playing with any other center.

Lastly, it also seems that the top players accumulate points not much more often than other players, but rather that they end up with higher point totals simply because they have more ice time. For example, if I switch Nazem Kadri and Jay McClement on the Leafs line-up, Kadri's statistics decrease, and McClement's increase nearly to what Kadri was previously producing.

Just some thoughts on how these issues work in the beta right now. Do think it's going to be a terrific game, and cannot wait to see how it continues to develop as you work out the kinks!
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:44 PM   #2
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I made the same observations. The points distribution doesn't seem right, to such a degree that it is actually impossible to mimic real life situations with the game.
Puckmoving, offensive minded defensemen get far too few points. It's impossible to recreate Bobby Orr in the game. I understand that Orr is an extreme example, but there have been (and are) other offensive blueliners who piled up points big time in various leagues. Currently the game can't handle defenders who should produce close to the numbers of some of the most productive forwards in any league. (i. e Karlsson in modern NHL, Housley, Coffey, Leetch in the past, Mario Scalzo as a teammate of Sidney Crosby in the QMJHL or Sascha Goc in the DEL, who finished top-5 in goal-scoring twice in his career).
Then there are the playmakers who can't get enough points. The most obvious example is Wayne Gretzky. Under current conditions he will rarely if ever score 100+ assists in one season or seperate himself from the pack like he did in real life. 200 points are out of the question. The game simply can't handle him it seems.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pens66 View Post
I made the same observations. The points distribution doesn't seem right, to such a degree that it is actually impossible to mimic real life situations with the game.
Puckmoving, offensive minded defensemen get far too few points. It's impossible to recreate Bobby Orr in the game. I understand that Orr is an extreme example, but there have been (and are) other offensive blueliners who piled up points big time in various leagues. Currently the game can't handle defenders who should produce close to the numbers of some of the most productive forwards in any league. (i. e Karlsson in modern NHL, Housley, Coffey, Leetch in the past, Mario Scalzo as a teammate of Sidney Crosby in the QMJHL or Sascha Goc in the DEL, who finished top-5 in goal-scoring twice in his career).
Then there are the playmakers who can't get enough points. The most obvious example is Wayne Gretzky. Under current conditions he will rarely if ever score 100+ assists in one season or seperate himself from the pack like he did in real life. 200 points are out of the question. The game simply can't handle him it seems.
I've been thinking of running a test with Gretzky... the rating system allows you to boost passing to a rating of 40 (out of 20!)... I wonder if that's what you need to get near 163 assists out him... maybe it's just a ratings issue?
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:07 PM   #4
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I've been thinking of running a test with Gretzky... the rating system allows you to boost passing to a rating of 40 (out of 20!)... I wonder if that's what you need to get near 163 assists out him... maybe it's just a ratings issue?
I ran test with 25s for the "right" attributes, i.e. passing, stick handling, consistency, offensive read. So basically the things Gretzky was truly outstanding. That was nowhere near enough to put him over the top. I guess you could make him inhuman by giving him 40s in every category, but that would be totally unrealistic.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:48 PM   #5
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Wow, so the first pic gives the stats the game give Gretzky by default... the second is what I had to do to boost him to a near 200 point, 120 assist player. I got him to 78 goals, 116 assists, but I also had to boost Kurri, Anderson (and move him to LW) and Coffey.

I only got Coffey to about 1 point per game... I think I'm going to boost him to offensive levels comparable to Gretzky and see what happens.
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:06 PM   #6
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Thanks much to all for the testing/posting!
It's good to see the expected effects of the Attribute adjustments are occuring!
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:49 PM   #7
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Thanks much to all for the testing/posting!
It's good to see the expected effects of the Attribute adjustments are occuring!
They are not really occuring.

Just made a funny little experiment: 1982-83 season; I adjusted Gretzky's core strengths playmaking, stickhandling, offensive read and getting open (all to 40).

Then I played the season twice, once with Gretzky giving a pass/shot tendency of 18 (thus making him a pass first guy) and once giving him a 3 in that category (making him a shoot first guy).

As a playmaker Gretzky scored 77 goals and piled up 71 assists.
As a goalscorer he scored 223 goals and collected 61 assists.

Now you tell me if, in the game, elite playmakers can make players around them better or goal scorers drive up the numbers of their linemates.

Btw: Glenn Anderson had 123 assists in Gretzky's goal scoring circus...
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by pens66 View Post
They are not really occuring.

Just made a funny little experiment: 1982-83 season; I adjusted Gretzky's core strengths playmaking, stickhandling, offensive read and getting open (all to 40).

Then I played the season twice, once with Gretzky giving a pass/shot tendency of 18 (thus making him a pass first guy) and once giving him a 3 in that category (making him a shoot first guy).

As a playmaker Gretzky scored 77 goals and piled up 71 assists.
As a goalscorer he scored 223 goals and collected 61 assists.

Now you tell me if, in the game, elite playmakers can make players around them better or goal scorers drive up the numbers of their linemates.

Btw: Glenn Anderson had 123 assists in Gretzky's goal scoring circus...
I'm not disagreeing with your original point (Playmakers not elevating linemates)... I actually think you are 100% correct.

However I think the flaw in your test is the getting open stat since I'm pretty sure that's related to goal scoring, so you may not be getting the effect you want (essentially Wayne is always wide open with an opportnunity to score... why would he pass?)
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:25 AM   #9
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Ok, if you ignore the fact that the injury bug hit, I think I found the level necessary to get Coffey producing at close to historical levels.

Essentially Coffey, statistically speaking, is the Gretzky of Defensemen... so you really need to get his offense up to that level.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
I'm not disagreeing with your original point (Playmakers not elevating linemates)... I actually think you are 100% correct.

However I think the flaw in your test is the getting open stat since I'm pretty sure that's related to goal scoring, so you may not be getting the effect you want (essentially Wayne is always wide open with an opportnunity to score... why would he pass?)
Yeah, I think you're right. That came to my mind afterwards as well.

Still, I don't think we should have to "manipulate" certain players in such an extreme way to make them score close to their real life numbers. I mean, how would you argue for giving Gretzky a 40 in passing, while you give other elite playmakers of NHL history (i.e. Oates) a 20 in passing? Just going by the numbers you could say Gretzky was twice as good at passing than Oates -- which is a ridiculous to say.

Different aspect: It worries me quite a bit that you, as you simulate the seasons, can't really see certain (real life) elite players stick out from the masses with their point production on a consistent basis.
It is even more aparrent in the modern NHL, where your player pool is bigger than let's say in the 70s or 80s. Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin should be top 5 scorers every year, barring injury. But they are not. They just coast along with nobodys. The problem is either that there is not much difference between an offensive potential of 850 and 700 or that the elite players are totally underrated by the db researchers. I don't know.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by pens66 View Post
Yeah, I think you're right. That came to my mind afterwards as well.

Still, I don't think we should have to "manipulate" certain players in such an extreme way to make them score close to their real life numbers. I mean, how would you argue for giving Gretzky a 40 in passing, while you give other elite playmakers of NHL history (i.e. Oates) a 20 in passing? Just going by the numbers you could say Gretzky was twice as good at passing than Oates -- which is a ridiculous to say.

Different aspect: It worries me quite a bit that you, as you simulate the seasons, can't really see certain (real life) elite players stick out from the masses with their point production on a consistent basis.
It is even more aparrent in the modern NHL, where your player pool is bigger than let's say in the 70s or 80s. Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin should be top 5 scorers every year, barring injury. But they are not. They just coast along with nobodys. The problem is either that there is not much difference between an offensive potential of 850 and 700 or that the elite players are totally underrated by the db researchers. I don't know.
I agree with you on almost every point. I was just trying to see if I could manipulate the ratings to get the desired result. Atleast we know the game is capable of producing close to the right stats.

I actually I think to get Adam Oates performing to historical levels at his peak (1989-94ish), his passing would probably have to be closer to 30... which is pretty much where I'd put Mario Lemieux. The rough formula I use is to take his best season for assists/4 (90 in 61 games in 89-90, or 120 over a full season). The logic being that for Gretzky it takes rating 40 to get the right results, and his best is 163 (which is an insane number of assists when you think of it!).

Now, is the right solution to change the way the game interprets the attributes, or the way the players are rated? Right now, I'd lean towards the latter because the second tier of players seem to work fine, so I'd be afraid of them messing up the 95% that work for the 5% that don't.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:56 PM   #12
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I agree with you on almost every point. I was just trying to see if I could manipulate the ratings to get the desired result. Atleast we know the game is capable of producing close to the right stats.

I actually I think to get Adam Oates performing to historical levels at his peak (1989-94ish), his passing would probably have to be closer to 30... which is pretty much where I'd put Mario Lemieux. The rough formula I use is to take his best season for assists/4 (90 in 61 games in 89-90, or 120 over a full season). The logic being that for Gretzky it takes rating 40 to get the right results, and his best is 163 (which is an insane number of assists when you think of it!).

Now, is the right solution to change the way the game interprets the attributes, or the way the players are rated? Right now, I'd lean towards the latter because the second tier of players seem to work fine, so I'd be afraid of them messing up the 95% that work for the 5% that don't.
I see where you're coming from. I guess I will make some more testing myself
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:19 PM   #13
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Just wanted to say i have noticed the same thing and hope it gets adressed, because as of now having the best playmaker in the league is pointless unless you also have a big time goal scorer.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:36 AM   #14
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This is *slightly* improved in 9.69 for forwards, though guys like Gretzky, oates and co., are still getting way less assists then they should (like half as many). 84-85 Gretz is still only rated in the high 20s in passing.

For defensemen it's a complete disaster... using game generated attributes, guys like Coffee/Bourque are getting 50-60 points a season in the mid 80s when in the real NHL Bourque was getting 90+ points a year and Coffee was getting 120-140...
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
This is *slightly* improved in 9.69 for forwards, though guys like Gretzky, oates and co., are still getting way less assists then they should (like half as many). 84-85 Gretz is still only rated in the high 20s in passing.

For defensemen it's a complete disaster... using game generated attributes, guys like Coffee/Bourque are getting 50-60 points a season in the mid 80s when in the real NHL Bourque was getting 90+ points a year and Coffee was getting 120-140...
this is a serious issue and more people should be commenting on it
supposedly the game is released in 2 days and even this gameplay- about the easiest to do, is not right
big problem
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:08 PM   #16
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this is a serious issue and more people should be commenting on it
supposedly the game is released in 2 days and even this gameplay- about the easiest to do, is not right
big problem
I've sent a file with pass/shoot and injury ratings for every player in NHL history (statistically derived). Hopefully that helps somewhat. It should get playmakers and shooters behaving a bit closer to reality if they can use the data I sent.
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