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Old 04-23-2019, 10:42 PM   #1
MorrisButtermaker
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Player Ratings Changing for No Reason & Historical Free-Agents W/Random Ratings Changes Upon Creatio

I have identified two Out of the Park Baseball XX bugs. I created a league that included all the teams from the Pacific Coast league in 1946. Since then I have been changing one of the teams over to a 1946 semipro team called the Brooklyn Bushwicks. I have been importing some players as historical free agents. Others I have had to create from scratch. I’ve had to do an enormous amount of roster editing. I have yet to play a single game in the league besides an exhibition contest. What I’m finding is the player's ratings fluctuate back and forth between two sets of ratings. When I load the game I never know which one of the two sets of ratings will be reflected in the game. When I exit the game, go back to the OOTP start screen, and load the game again the ratings always switch over to the other set. I read a post in the forums indicating that a user of OOTP Baseball 17 and 19 had this same problem. (See: https://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boa...67#post4477867.) The other bug I am finding is that when I import the exact same historical free agent with all the variables the same on multiple occasions within this same league I get very different player ratings. Sometimes pitchers come up with different pitches in their arsenals. I assume there’s no element of randomness in importing historical free agents and so when I import the same player under the same options in the same league he should be the same every time. I have not started league play. It is still March 10, 1946. I believe I set the scouting options as I should have done when I created the league. I would appreciate any and all helpful information anyone can provide me on these bugs.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:15 AM   #2
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minor league pitchers are imported with random pitches so every import is different in this specific area. major leaguers have specific pitches, not random.

you would need to be way more specific in the other areas for me to be able to help.
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:44 AM   #3
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the problems have gotten much worse after uninstalling and reinstalling

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minor league pitchers are imported with random pitches so every import is different in this specific area. major leaguers have specific pitches, not random.

you would need to be way more specific in the other areas for me to be able to help.
I understand it would be impossible to research the pitches thrown by every minor league player. I assume the overall rating should be the same each time the player is created even though his pitches can change. Is this true?

I tried uninstalling and reinstalling OOTP Baseball 20 and now the problems have gotten much worse.I am currently seeing fluctuations in overall rating of as much as 50 points when I start the same league/game using all of the same variables and parameters. I have never progressed passed day 1 in these leagues/games. They have all been 1946 AAA leagues accept for two NNLs. Some free agents that should be part of the free agent pool are only appearing in the pool some of the time. Tony Cuccinello is always listed as the top free agent available. I think he should have an overall rating of 71 based upon the very first game I started. He is now coming in with an overall rating in the low 20s.I also noticed that after I start a game the logo for the AAA team I take over as GM and manager starts to display incorrectly after I take over. It can look widely different each time out. My experience with OOTP Baseball has been extremely disappointing.I took off from work today to get various things done and I hope to get this straightened out. What more info can I give you?

Last edited by MorrisButtermaker; 05-06-2019 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorrisButtermaker View Post
I understand it would be impossible to research the pitches thrown by every minor league player. I assume the overall rating should be the same each time the player is created even though his pitches can change. Is this true?

I tried uninstalling and reinstalling OOTP Baseball 20 and now the problems have gotten much worse.I am currently seeing fluctuations in overall rating of as much as 50 points when I start the same league/game using all of the same variables and parameters. I have never progressed passed day 1 in these leagues/games. They have all been 1946 AAA leagues accept for two NNLs. Some free agents that should be part of the free agent pool are only appearing in the pool some of the time. Tony Cuccinello is always listed as the top free agent available. I think he should have an overall rating of 71 based upon the very first game I started. He is now coming in with an overall rating in the low 20s.I also noticed that after I start a game the logo for the AAA team I take over as GM and manager starts to display incorrectly after I take over. It can look widely different each time out. My experience with OOTP Baseball has been extremely disappointing.I took off from work today to get various things done and I hope to get this straightened out. What more info can I give you?
This sounds like you're using a different ratings scale in some of these games. Which ratings scale are you currently using when you check in the settings of your saved game where Cuccinello is rated in the 20's? And if you load the old game, where Cuccinello is rated in the 70's, what scale there?
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
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This sounds like you're using a different ratings scale in some of these games. Which ratings scale are you currently using when you check in the settings of your saved game where Cuccinello is rated in the 20's? And if you load the old game, where Cuccinello is rated in the 70's, what scale there?
The only scale I have ever used in 20 to 80 with no increments. When I did the reinstall I erased all my old games/leagues and files. Does the logo issue suggest something major is wrong? I also notice that although Tony is rated in the 20s other free agents are rated in the 60s. I think he is listed as the top free agent because he should be 72. He hit .300 in the majors in 1945 and jumped to the equivalent of a AAA them (the Bushwicks) in 1946.

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Old 05-06-2019, 01:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorrisButtermaker View Post
I understand it would be impossible to research the pitches thrown by every minor league player. I assume the overall rating should be the same each time the player is created even though his pitches can change. Is this true? No because some minor league items are random.

What more info can I give you?
I think it is more the other way around. Please bee specific about what ratings you think are off. if you do not like the overall rating please note which of the individual ratings you believe to be off.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:20 PM   #7
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more on how OOTP Baseball works and the Brooklyn Bushwicks

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I think it is more the other way around. Please bee specific about what ratings you think are off. if you do not like the overall rating please note which of the individual ratings you believe to be off.
Thank you for helping me understand how OOTP Baseball works.

I now realize that with players who get imported as free agents into AAA leagues it is intended that such players will not always come in with the same overall ratings even if they are created under the same set of variables and parameters. I am surprised to see such a wide variance in overall ratings.

I have never meant any of my comments as a criticism of the way in which OOTP Baseball rates players. I understand that as of now the simulation can't account for a player's performance in a semipro league because it can't pull from the data it would need to do so. I am just trying to find out if what I have been experiencing is explained by some sort of a technological bug that can be addressed.

Perhaps OOTP Baseball is not designed to permit me to do what I am trying to do. I have been attempting to start a 1946 AAA Pacific Coast League, take over as GM and manager of the Sacramento Salons, and turn them into the 1946 Brooklyn Bushwicks by importing historical free agents, editing players whenever necessary and creating a few players from scratch.

I have started several such leagues. Tony Cuccinello is always a part of the free agent pool created by the game from the very start. I do not have to import him. He is always listed as the top free agent available. The first league I started he came in with an overall of 72. This is understandable because he hit .308 (402 at bats) in the majors in 1945. I realize the game can't account for the fact that he jumped to the equivalent of a AAA them (the Bushwicks) in 1946 and hit 291. When Tony has come in with and overall rating in the 20s in the more recent 1946 AAA Pacific Coast Leagues it is one of the things that has caused me to think I am dealing with some sort of bug.

I have included in this post an image that shows stats from the 1946 Bushwick team. For the equivalent of a AAA team I think they are pretty impressive. There were put up by a team who played 95% of its games in what was about the most extreme pitcher's park imaginable. That year the team played in 92 games and won 71. They went 27 and 14 vs. Negro League teams.

After the season ended the Bushwicks played in and won what had to be one of the earliest examples of an international baseball tournament. They beat semipro teams from Cuba, Mexico and Venezuela. These teams could have been very strong.

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Old 05-06-2019, 03:02 PM   #8
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Keep in mind that the 2 players you have named in these posts are in their 40's and had not played in the minors for 5 or so years until WWII took away many players.
Age has a big effect on ratings. these fellas are older than dirt. sticking them in the PCL will do them no rating favors. they will be matched up against 20 year olds. it won't be pretty.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Keep in mind that the 2 players you have named in these posts are in their 40's and had not played in the minors for 5 or so years until WWII took away many players.
Age has a big effect on ratings. these fellas are older than dirt. sticking them in the PCL will do them no rating favors. they will be matched up against 20 year olds. it won't be pretty.
Almost all of the team's players were between 32 and 38 and so I understand your point. I have asked myself what if anything, the success the Bushwicks had against the Negro League teams tells us about the Negro League teams. Even during the 1945 season, when none of the stars of the Negro League teams had been singed away by MLB teams to play in the minors, the Bushwicks went 26-16 vs. Negro League teams. I must admit I do not know how many of them had been in the military during the war and whether they made it back to play for the 1945 season. During the 1945 and 1946 season the Bushwicks won 19% and 13% less games against the Negro League teams than against white semipro teams which they played just as often. I am wondering if this means the Negro League teams were 13%-19% better than the typical white semipro team of the period. The next question is if this accurately describes a "high AAA" league which is how I have often seen the Negro Leagues described. I have thought of experimenting with creating the Bushwicks in a AA league instead of a AAA league. If I did their overall ratings would look comparatively better. However, I do not think such a team could compete with the Negro League teams as they are rated by OOTP Baseball for 1945 and 1946. For some reason the image I tried to attach to my last post was not displayed. I will try again. You just need to scroll down to the bottom of the page and look for the box in the middle of the page.


http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter...stHlPage=false

Here is a link: http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter...stHlPage=false

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Old 05-06-2019, 07:18 PM   #10
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many negro league teams had 2 or 3 squads traveling about using the same name at the same time. if you ponder on that for a bit you might realize the basic premise probably means nothing.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:44 PM   #11
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the Bushwicks played against all the stars of the Negro Leagues year in and year out

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many negro league teams had 2 or 3 squads traveling about using the same name at the same time. if you ponder on that for a bit you might realize the basic premise probably means nothing.
The Bushwicks offered the highest pay day to visiting teams of any baseball team outside of the American and National Leagues. Their stadium sat 15,000 and in some years they drew more fans than some teams from the American and National Leagues even though they never played more than about 92 games in a season. They wanted to play the best teams regardless of race and the best teams wanted to play them. It was what was best for business. In Baseball's Peerless Semipros: The Brooklyn Bushwicks of Dexter Park, Thomas Barthel documents the fact that the Bushwicks played against all the stars of the Negro Leagues year in and year out. I have a family member who collected many Negro League star's autographs in Dexter Park before games against the Bushwicks. They appear to have played more games vs. the Negro National League teams than the Negro American Leagues teams. I think this is explained by geography. Box scores from the team's games against the Negro Leagues teams were all printed in the newspapers. It has been fascinating to study them through https://fultonsearch.org/ and see just who they played against.

If I can just get to the bottom of whether I have one or more bugs in my game I can continue with my efforts to create a version of the Bushwicks in OOTP Baseball, experiment with them and see what I can learn.
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:16 PM   #12
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a claification

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many negro league teams had 2 or 3 squads traveling about using the same name at the same time. if you ponder on that for a bit you might realize the basic premise probably means nothing.
I just looked more into this. Of the 41 games they played vs. Negro League teams in 1946, nine were against teams that did NOT play in the Negro American or National Leagues. Four of these nine were against the Cincinnati Crescents who were a very good team. Still, perhaps the 13% and 19% figures were a bit misleading. Nonetheless, I would have expected those numbers to be much higher than 13% and 19%. It could be that the Bushwicks white competition was much stronger than one might have guessed. That the Bushwicks played about 95% of their games at home also skews the numbers a bit.

I am not pretending to have the answers. I am just pondering questions. I do think that if you are interested enough to click on that link I posted earlier in the thread that provides a list of the players on the Bushwicks in 1946 you can see just how much talent the team had to put up against the Negro Leagues teams.

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Old 05-06-2019, 10:41 PM   #13
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Sorry, the link is to blurred for my old eyes to read the words in the box.

I plan to see what I can find on-line about them.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:26 PM   #14
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I can relate

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Sorry, the link is to blurred for my old eyes to read the words in the box.

I plan to see what I can find on-line about them.
I can relate. I started having to wear bifocals two years ago. If there was some way I could post an an image file I could post a blow up that is more readable.

You can zoom in on that Web site but I do understand that does not help very much if the image is too blurry for you.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:10 AM   #15
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you can post image files by clicking on advanced when you make a reply
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:04 PM   #16
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an attached image and more on Bushwicks and Negro Leagues

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you can post image files by clicking on advanced when you make a reply
Thanks, I tried to attach an image. I hope it works. I realize although it is blownup it is still a bit blurry. I understand you may find it impossible to read.

I did some more research and learned that the Bushwicks did not always far as well against the Negro League teams as they did in 1945 and 1946. Sometimes they lost more than they won. Players being away for the war could have weakened the Negro Leagues in 1945. 1946 was the first year the Negro Leagues were without some stars who had begun playing in the minors. The Bushwicks were not hurt that much by WWII because their players were older, some were married, and some had children. A lot of them were exempt from the draft.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:55 PM   #17
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Closing Thoughts...

For the sake of anyone who stumbles upon this thread in the future, I just want to offer some closing thoughts. I have learned that the Bushwicks' lost more games than they won against Negro League teams from the 1920s through 1944. I'm still trying to determine why things were so different in 1945 and 1946.

There either is available for sale, or has been for sale in the recent past, seven different style Brooklyn Bushwick caps from seven different seasons. One can also buy authentic reproductions of a 1933 jersey and grounds crew jacket. The Brooklyn Bushwicks team name has also been, and in some cases still is, sold on a number of modern apparel items. I believe the availability of these projects proves that the public is interested in the team and that if OOTP Baseball were to include the Bushwicks in a future version of the simulation it would be well received. Other posts made by others that mention the team can be found in these forums.

Perhaps what OOTP Baseball might want to do is create a "league" of independent teams that included the Bushwicks. Also included in this "league" could be independent African-American teams that did not play in the Negro American League or Negro National League and so are not currently found in the simulation. The Luke Easter's Cincinnati Crescents are a team that would be fun to utilize.
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