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Old 12-13-2009, 03:42 PM   #41
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Old Cleveland Williams
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:20 PM   #42
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Old Folks-Zora Folley & Floyd Patterson plus Elmer Rush & Billy McMurray

The above ratings are on the bottom of page 2.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:22 AM   #43
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Battling Torres-The Reynosa Rattlesnake

A streaking comet in the late 50s-early 60s, Raymundo "Battling" Torres was an exciting prospect in the lightweight/jr. welterweight division. Rated 94th on The Ring's "100 Greatest Punchers" list, he had a left hook that could tear your head off and a right that could do you serious harm.

He started boxing as a pro soon after his sixteenth birthday and ran up a string of twenty-four wins, seventeen by knockout, against no losses by the time he turned eighteen. All of his fights were in Mexico, often in his hometown of Reynosa, against local stiffs or an occassional American who travelled South of the Border. Among the latter were ring veterans Pat McCoy and Billy Peacock.

Raymundo caught international attention when he started knocking out some name fighters like Frankie Ryff, Johnny Busso, and Russell Tague. He also took a unanimous decicion over Paul Armstead. During this fantastic run in 1959 he was hyped by Boxing Illustrated as a force majeure.

Handsome and dynamic, Torres was now fighting many of his bouts in the Los Angeles Olympic Auditorium and developed a fanatical following among Mexican-Americans. It was at this point that his handlers made a critical mistake. They matched him against Carlos Ortiz for the World Light Welterweight crown in February 1960.

A few days shy of his nineteenth birthday, Raymundo was in over his head against Ortiz, who was just coming into his own as a star in professional boxing. He was outclassed by Carlos for nine rounds before his was kayoed in the tenth. While he scored some powerful shots that provided the Ortiz camp with a few nervous minutes, Torres was obviously out of his league.

Rather than regrouping and polishing their diamond in the rough, the Torres "braintrust" threw him in with Cisco Andrade who knocked Raymundo out in seven. He then faced the savvy Paul Jorgensen and picked up a close ten round decision. On the basis of his performance, he was thrown in against lightweight king Joe Brown who put him away in the fourth round. All of this happened in 1960!

The following year, his handlers eased up on the throttle a bit and put Torres in with less challenging opponents. He ran up another string of early round knockouts until he was kayoed again by Andrede at the end of 1961. Sadly, some of the shine had gone off Raymundo's star. He was all of twenty years old!

In 1963, Torres, who was still a strong draw in Southern California, had one final shot at the big time. All of the pieces appered to be in place to give him a world title. He met light-hitting Roberto Cruz, who had an unimpressive record of 13-7-1, in Dodger Stadium before a highly partisan crowd for the WBA light welterweight title. Cruz knocked Torres cold at the 2:07 mark of the first round.

Torres went on to fight for another four years, and all of his bouts were in Mexico where he remained very popular. He fought three wars with Alvaro Gutierrez and held the Mexican welter title as a result. He also split two fights with journeyman L.C. Morgan. After suffereing a one round knockout loss to Rafael Gutierrez in 1967, Torres retired from the ring. He was only twenty-six, an age when most boxers a just entering their prime.

I've included a link to exerpts from his 1960 match with Ortiz which gives you a good sense of Raymundo's style. He came straight at you like a min-Chuvalo. Most of his wins were early kayos, but all of his nine losses were by stoppages--he was counted out in eight of them. In essence, if Torres tagged you, it was lights out, but if you got him first and put him down, he was gone.

There's no debating that he was a natural power puncher. Had he been taught some basic boxing skills and developed at a more prudent pace, who knows where his career would have wound up.

A note about the rating. He's not to be confused with the Battling Torres who boxed as a light middleweight during the 1980s. That was his son, who is rated in the default pool. In one of the rare oversights by the TBCB team, the orginal Battling Torres was not rated and included in the default pool.

Here's the link to the Ortiz match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzgYHML5rbo
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:24 AM   #44
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Torres with Carlos Ortiz at the weigh-in for their February 1960 title match.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:25 AM   #45
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Luis Rodriguez and Torres during boxing awards ceremony
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:06 AM   #46
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Baby Faced Tague

After the start of what appeared to be a promising career, Russell "Baby Faced" Tague settled into the role of a primary gatekeeper for the featherweight and lighweight divisions during the mid to late 1950s. He was typically the guy you faced on your way up---or on your way down.

He sported an impressive resume that included names like Willie Pep, Davey Moore, Ike Chestnut, Battling Torres, Sonny Leon, Gil Cadilli, and Lulu Perez. Tague was always ready to fight and scored an occassional upset along the way.

Regardless of the outcome, he was a tough customer. In his second fight with an aging Willie Pep, it's alleged that Tague had broken fourteen of Willie's ribs in a losing effort.

The father of seven children, Baby Faced fought frequently and travelled to the far reaches of North America to pick up a purse. Fighting virtually every month (sometimes every other week) took its toll on Tague, and by the end of 1956 he was somewhat shopworn.

The following year he lost all five of his matches and appeared to call it a day. He returned to face Paul Jorgensen in April 1958 and suffered a tenth round TKO. A year later, he faced Battling Torres and was counted out in the third heat. At this point he retired for good, after securing a more stable means of feeding his family as an employee at the John Deere Plow and Planter Company.

Angelo Dundee noted of Tague, "Only tough guys fought him...And he had to go after them in their hometown."
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:43 PM   #47
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"Showboat" Thomas

You'll have to bear with me a little on this one since I'm going back in my memory more than forty years ago.

Back in the late 1960s, Al Certo converted an old movie house in our community into a boxing arena with cards featuring local New Jersey talent. One night I saw a card that headlined Chuck "Bayonne Bleeder" Wepner versus "Showboat" Clay Thomas. Chuck won by way of a thrid round TKO.

I recall Thomas as a stocky, somewhat flabby, African-American with an unkempt Afo who just sort of shuffled slowly around the ring. For the first two rounds, Wepner seemed to be carrying him. Early in the third, Thomas tagged Chuck with a decent hook. Wepner then went to work on him until referee Harold Valan called a halt with about a minute left. Thus the Showboat was sunk.

After the match I spoke to Certo who informed me that Thomas was a "ring veteran" who had fought Ernie Terrell. Al was and is a very nice guy. What he didn't tell me was that Terrell knocked the Showboat cold in one round when they met in 1960 at Chicago Stadium!

A native of Paterson, NJ (I'll bet he was pals with Mel Turnbow!), Thomas bounced around the small venues in New Jersey, New York City, and New England as an undercard fighter for a decade. He even had a few fights in Texas as well.

Beyond Wepner and Terrell, the only familiar names on his record were Marion Connor, Jimmy Dupree, and Sonny Banks, all of whom defeated him.

From the looks of things, the Showboat was actually a light heavy who had problems managing his weight, and as the years went by, you sort of get the impression that he didn't work very hard on this issue.

Just as a final note, the fight I saw was actually the Showboat's last. Now that's something that I can tell the grand children!
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:43 PM   #48
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"One Man Revolution" Lancaster

Billy Lancaster was quite a character. Not only was he your typical club fighter who was a regular on cards in the small venues that were found in Maine's small hamlets during the 1940s, Billy was also a preacher!

According to a July 1948 article in The Ring, Lancaster would pray to cast out Satan in the dressing room before his fights. Once in the ring, however, Lancaster was not inclined to turn the other cheek.

He got his ring name, "One Man Revolution", from his Greb-like windmill style of fighting. His defense consisted of an attacking offense. According to reports of his fights, he would leap through the air in an effort to hit taller opponents.

From all accounts, he must have put on quite a show. Aside from the leaping and no-stop punching, Lancaster refused to sit between rounds and generally paced around the ring until the bell rang for the next heat.

Lancaster rarely left Maine during his professional career which ran from 1940 to 1947 and really didn't fight anyone of note. He did have a few bouts in Boston Garden and New Hampshire, but he was pretty much content to stay close to home. Billy briefly held the Maine Middleweight title.

The article in The Ring stressed that he worked out daily in the local gyms and keep himself in excellent shape. So intially, I was strongly tempted to grade him as a 1 for his conditioning.

But then I started to think things over. In a career that spanned only seven years, Billy had 172 recorded fights---that's nearly twenty-five fights a year! Sure, working out will keep your muscles toned but it won't heal the internal damage done to the body as a result of all those fights. Thus, I opted to set him at an 8 ("fights too frequently").

In a modern world of pay-per-views and casino cards, club fighters like "One Man Revolution" Lancaster have gone the way of the buffalo. Yet I'll bet that someone watching him whip his arms around and leap through the air at the Rockland, Maine Community Center got a much bigger bang for his buck than most of us do today at an event staged in Las Vegas or Atlantic City.
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:29 PM   #49
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Stonewall Jackson

Of the dozen or so boxers who've traded off the name of the charismatic Confederate general, late 1940s-early 1950s welterweight Louis Jackson was by far the most colorful and prolific

A Max Baer-type clown in the ring, Jackson was an entertaining character, joking, dancing, and mugging during his bouts. According to a brief profile that appeared in the November 1948 issue of The Ring, Stonewall would occasionally enter the ring with a cat drapped around his shoulders.

During his matches, he was a flashy boxer, throwing bolo punches and displaying fancy footwork. In 1951, Hall of Famer Joe "Old Bones" Brown found Stonewall so entertaining that he broke Jackson's jaw in the fourth round and cruised to TKO victory when the Washington, D.C. prankster couldn't come out for the next heat.

That was one of only five stoppages suffered by Stonewall in his fifty-one fight career. Besides Brown, only Chico Varena, Peter Mueller, Terry Moore, and the star-crossed Sonny Boy West sent Jackson home early, so Jackson did have a decent chin.

He compiled a respectable 32-17-2 record in a career that ran from 1946 until late 1953. His flair in the ring could not hide the fact that Stonewall was a light puncher. Jackson only stopped his opponents in seven fights. At best he was a prelim fighter who faced a qualitry fighter every now and then.

From his record, you get the sense that Stonewall was somewhat of a free spirit who couldn't be too bothered polishing his skills which is often the case with ring clowns.

The charm of boxing seemed to wear thin in his final year as a pro when he went 2-4 in a series of undercard matches. After dropping a six round decision to the unheralded Tommy Maddox, Stonewall called it a career.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:54 AM   #50
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California Dreamers--Esau and the Chiller

During the immediate post-World War Two period and throughout a good part of the 1950s, air travel was not as common as today. As a result, intra-state boxing attracted a considerable degree of attention.

State titles, particularly on the West Coast, were highly prized and often produced intense rivalries between fighters. Such was the case with Esau Ferdinand and Charley "The Chiller" Green during the mid-1950s.

Ferdinand and Green met a total of six times, fighting for both the California light heavyweight and middleweight crowns. Although both were tough sluggers, they differed in style. Nevertheless, they were evenly matched, each walking away with three wins.

Although neither were contenders for a world title, you could usually find them among the top twenty or so of their respective divisions. In essence they functioned as divisional "gatekeepers"---very tough gatekeepers!

BoxRec Ferdinand as a light heavy and Green as a middleweight. In reality, both fighters fought at an "in-between" weight, so I rated them as super middleweights to be a bit more realistic. If you fight them up or down in weight class, you might want to allow an adjustment for weight differences.

Esau Ferdinand: A slugger who won by wearing you down rather than knocking you out. In forty-eight wins, he only stopped eleven opponents. His up-close, in-your-face style limited a boxer's mobility and reduced a slugger's punching room.

Although a young Floyd Patterson picked up a unanimous decision in their first meeting, Ferdiand gave the future heavyweight champion some problems as indicated from this account that appeared in Sports Illustrated:

"Esau Ferdinand was different. He walked out in the first round and hit me in the eye with a left hook. I couldn't see for a minute, so I went close to him. I didn't want him to know. But I couldn't do anything with him. He bullied me in the clinches. Kept on bullying me in the clinches all through the fight. He'd get me close and hit me and say nasty things to me. I was a boxer up until then. I couldn't fight inside. He'd say, 'Why don't you punch me, why don't you punch me?' I got the decision, but the next morning I went to the gym and I started trying to learn to fight inside—get my feet on the floor and slug."
Patterson stopped Esau in the final round of their second meeting which was a rare finish for Ferdinand. He was only stopped twice in his seventy-four bout career as a professional. Green had stopped him several years earlier in a contest for the California state middleweight title. So Esau's punch might have been somewhat weak, his chin was very strong!
Besides his fights with Patterson and his series with Green he was in the ring with the major West Coast boxers in the middleweight and light heavyweight divisions, and he wore the state championship crown in both divisions.
In a career that spanned from 1948 to 1959, Ferdinand compiled a record of 49-17-2.

Charley "The Chiller" Green: Green's career lasted a little more than seven years (1950-1956). Yet he was quite active and ended with a record of 38-21-3. His nickname. the Chiller, was given in recognition of his punching power. Of his thirty-eight wins, twenty-eight ended early.
Born in Chicago but settled in San Francisco, all of his matches were fought in California. While most of his contests were against fellow Golden Staters, he did face some outsiders who were well-known in the boxing world. He took a unanimous decision from Milo Savage and lost on the scorecards to both Holly Mims and Spider Webb.
In addition to a potent punch, the Chiller had a pretty hard jaw. He was only stopped three times, and those came at the very early stages of his career.
Green held the state middleweight title twice and dropped a twelve round split decision to arch-rival Ferdinand for the California light heavy crown.


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Old 12-26-2009, 11:56 AM   #51
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Esau Ferdinand
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:58 AM   #52
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Charley "The Chiller" Green
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:29 PM   #53
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Dick Wipperman

Irascible and erratic, Dick Wipperman added a little splash of color to the heavyweight diviision during the second half of the 1960s. He was controversial and chaotic both inside and outside of the ring. His story is recounted at the following website.

WAIL! | The CBZ Journal | May 2005


Not included in the TBCB default pool, Wipperman was rated by Rocco DelSesto nearly six years ago in the Mods. I'm offering a different take on Wipperman and will explain a few areas where my assessments differ from those presented by Rocco.

First, I increased Wipperman's CF from 4/3 to 7/6. Whille it's true that almost all of his wins were against "tomato cans", in his losses he did go the distance with Buster Mathis and Oscar Bonavena.

Moreover, he was giving both Henry Cooper and Big Jim Beattie (in their first fight-1964) difficult nights before controversial calls by the refs abruptly ended matters. I'd also add that he was able to keep a young bull like Bonavena at bay for ten rounds. So he was far from just reactive to the initiatives of his opponents.

I also reduced his HP from 7 to 3. Once he hit the "big time" in late 1964, his knockouts and TKO wins were few. While half of his thirty-two victories were via early endings, all but a handful were against stiffs with a few bouts under their belts during the early part of Wipperman's career.

Another substantial difference centers around the quality of Wipperman's chin. He was rated at 4 for knockdowns and 3 for knockouts. I have him at 3 and 1 respectively. On the surface, a chin vs knockout rating of 1 for a guy who was halted in half of his fourteen losses will raise some brows, but please hear me out.

A closer look at Wipperman's stoppages indicates that while you could indeed knock him down, you couldn't put him away by way of a countout. Only hard-hitting Bob Felstein accomplished that.

Joe Frazier couldn't do it, nor could Henry Cooper. Neither could George Chuvalo in two attempts. They all halted Wipperman by way of TKO. And Wipperman went the distance with Bonavena and Beattie (twice), both of whom packed a wallop.

Finally, I upgraded his endurance from 5 to 7. Although he lost the fights, he could go the full ten rounds with Bonanvena, Beattie, and in his last fight, Buster Mathis. I thought the previous rating of 5 was a little too low and far too often resulted in TKO losses.

I did, however, keep Wipperman's conditioning rating at 9-"Head Case". It certainly is reflective of his volatile personality.

Picture below was initially posted by Bear several years ago.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:09 PM   #54
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Philly Cheesesteaks-"Bang Bang" Alford

As a fighter progresses through his career, it's generally assumed that he'll fill out and move up in weight class. However, when there's a weight increase of forty pounds you have to atrribute it to either a very active pituitary gland or poor weight managment.

The latter cause seems to be the case with Johnny "Bang Bang" Alford, a Philly slugger who stated out as a middleweight in 1959 and found himself fighting as a heavy seven years later. It seems that Johnny liked to spend a lot of time on South Street bang-banging down those famous cheesesteaks.

Just a little supporting documentation. In April 1967, Alford tipped the scales at 172 in a TKO win over Henry Matthews. Four months later, he comes in at 196 against Dick Gosha. I rest my case.

During his early years, Alford had a reputation as somewhat of a knockout artist. But as is often the case, as he moved up in weight class, his punching power was diluted, and his kayo wins became less frequent.

Still he was an active slugger in the ring who seemed to be able to go the full ten rounds despite the extra padding. Boxers who could move seemed to be particularly troublesome, however. Jimmy Ellis, Harold Johnson, Johnny Persol, and Angel Oquendo all held wins over him.

When he finally hung up the gloves in 1968, Bang Bang finished with a record of 24-16-3. He was only counted out twice, and was sent home early on two other occassions via TKO. So he had a decent chin and could take a pounding.

In addition to those mentioned above, Alford was in against Leotis Martin and Giulio Rinaldi, losing on points in both instances. In his final match, he took a unanimous ten round decision from Rocky Rivero.

He was inactive in 1965 and 1966 due to a stint in the service. When he returned to the ring in 1967, he had fourteen more bouts until he retired the following year. During this final period, his record was 9-5. Outside of his decision against Rivero and a TKO win over Luis Guitierrez, all of his victories were against bottom feeders.

When I finished calculating all of the variables, I came up with an overall rating of 3 for Bang Bang, which I think is appropriate. He had no problem with the lesser levels of talent, and although he lost to almost all of the name fighters he faced, Alford could usually hold his own and take them the distance.

I've rated Alford as a cruiserweight, even though that division did not exist when he was fighting. He's listed in BoxRec as a heavyweight, but was, in reality, a guy who generally fought somewhere between the high 170s to the mid-180s. I'd suggest that you use weight class adjustments when you have him fighting as either a heavy or a light heavy.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:18 PM   #55
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Marsh Madness

Back in the late 1960s, I was forever confusing Billy Marsh and Ron Marsh. Not a particularly pressing problem, since neither made much of a mark in professional boxing.

The two actually met twice with heavyweight Ron knocking out light heavy Billy in the fourth round in both fights.

Billy Marsh: Pretty much red meat for most of his career with a record of 50-82 (that's right--82!)-16. Thirty-five of those losses were the result of early exits by Billy.

In his career (1967-1973), Marsh had three dry spells. He was without a win in eleven straight contests in 1968 and then stretched out for nineteen fights without a victory between mid-1969 and mid-1970. He put together two successive KO wins and went on his final bender of twenty fights without having his hand raised. That's how a guy loses eighty-two fights!

Besides a weak chin, Marsh also had little in terms of a punch with only eleven stoppages among his fifty victories. He had some boxing skills, but they weren't enough to keep him out of trouble. Once he got tagged with a decent punch, it was usually Code Red time for Billy.

Ron Marsh: Another one of those white guys from America's Heartland (this time Nebraska) touted for his punching power during the 1960s. Marsh recorded twenty-one stoppages among his thirty-two wins in a career that ran from 1965 to 1970. So on paper, he had some power.

But there rests a dirty little secret. Virtually all of his early ights were scored either against ring novices or guys who fought as light heavies (he fought lighter guys often--must have been a school yard bully as a child).

The only real quality heavyweights he fought were Buster Mathis who stopped Marsh in the fourth round back in 1967 (Marsh was only stopped one other time in his career) and Gregorio Peralta in a match that saw Ron lose by way of a ninth round disqualification six months later.

The loss to Mathis raises some serious questions concerning the quality of Marsh's chin. Buster, not known as a power puncher, sent Ron to the mat five times in four rounds. Makes you wonder what would have happened to Marsh if he were facing guys like Frazier, Chuvalo, Liston, or Quarry!

In the end, Marsh wound up with an impressive record (on paper that is) of 32-4. Of course he pretty much put that together fighting nobodies and smaller guys.

The good thing for Ron was, that somewhere along the way, he figured out that he really didn't have what it takes to be a pro boxer and wisely left the game at age twenty-five.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:21 PM   #56
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BILLY MARSH

The photo below was posted initially by LeeSkye.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:32 PM   #57
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RON MARSH

The picture was initially posted by Tosti.

Note: When I created this rating last year, the only other was one put together and posted by Rocco Del Sesto several years ago.

While doing a search to give proper attribution for Marsh's photo, I discovered that Ice Tea had created a rating and added it to the data pool several months ago.

While there are some obvious differences, I think both ratings are valid and representative. I just have another view of Marsh.

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Old 12-31-2009, 11:39 AM   #58
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Prime versus "Prime"

One of the things that often causes me to tinker around is the designation of "prime" for a fighter's ratings. While both the TBCB team and individual forum members (Dean's "Day Cooncil" in particular) have offered specific career stage ratings for the boxing greats, i.e., Ali, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, etc., the standard boxer has one rating called "prime." If you wish, you can adjust automatically or manually for career stage.

Sounds okay thus far. But here's the problem that I have. In reality, the typical rating is not actually based upon a fighter's prime years but rather reflects a cumulative assessment of his entire career. If you make a career adjustment prior to fight sim, you generally are taking another step further from accuracy since your adjusting a rating that is not really prime to begin with.

In a number of instances, particularly with lower rated fighters, the values for HP, Chin, and Endurance are off, sometimes substantially. This obviously effects accuracy whenever you use these fighters against another in a career replay or simulation.

The problem is quite accute when you are dealing with guys who've had long careers and/or had retired but came back to pick up some more pay days several years later. (I've rated two such boxers below).

Obviously only a person with an obsessive-compulsive disorder such as I would care about such things. And I'm aware that the reasons for this situation are grounded in the game's historic roots and the need for practicality. Thus, I don't mean to be critical here. I'm just stating what I believe to be a fact. And while I don't personally update from the pool, there's been a diligent and continuous effort by Ice Tea and others to revisit the ratings and revise them accordingly.

When this game first came out in 1976, you had a few dozen heavyweights, roughly two dozen champions and the rest the top crop of current heavies. Focusing on fifty or so boxers with a considerable degree of intensity is a lot different from the task at hand today whereby you are providing evaluations in the form of ratings for over 5,000 fighters. With that type of workload, it really is impossible to do the career analysis for each fighter.

With the ratings that I post in this context, all I'm doing is sharing with the members my adjustments to my personal date base. I'm not claiming any exceptional ability or insight. Overall, the TBCB rating team's end product is pretty accurate, and in a majority of instances, I'm not inclined to tweak their final assessment of a boxer.

I've outlined it before, but it might be a good thing to say it again, here's what I look for when evaluating the prime stage. Age, quality of opponents, point at which the boxer starts fighting longer fights, and so on. I have no formula nor applied science. Pure instinct and subjectivity.

One note or aside, concerning "Knockouts". Since TBCB has a chin rating for knockouts, I distinguish between a KO and a TKO. The former you can pretty much cover with the chin rating. With the latter, you are dealing with a variety of factors such as "Recovery", "Absorb Punishment", "Endurance", "Conditioning", "Defense", and the number of opporunities to "Cover UP."

Last edited by professordp; 12-31-2009 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:52 AM   #59
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The Best Years of Our Lives-Lou Bailey & Vic Brown

Here are two fighters from the Ali-In-Exile era (late 1960s) for whom I've provided a Prime career rating. Both Bailey an Brown had very long careers. Neither was anything more than a trial horse for fighters on their way up who were looking for a predictable opponent.

Bailey started his career back in 1957 at the age of twenty. Ten years later he stopped fighting, but made a return to the ring three years later in 1970 at the age of thirty-three and fought four more years. The rating that I've provided covers his career from 1961 up to 1967.

Brown began boxing professionally in 1963 when he was twenty-four. He was gone for two years of military service and restarted his career in 1966. His rating is based upon his performance up to 1970.

I've simmed both fighters against their rated opponents for these respective periods and have enjoyed very accurate results. I also made career stage adjustments (Post-Prime) with realistic results as well
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:55 AM   #60
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LOU BAILEY

I got the photo from a posting by Big Matt.
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