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OOTP 15 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2014 version of Out of the Park Baseball here!

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Old 04-09-2014, 12:32 PM   #1
drksd4848
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Pitchers/batters getting stale

If I may squeeze in one more request for 15 that I would have loved to see in previous versions as well...

How about an indicator to let you know a pitcher is getting stale and needs some work. For example, your team hasn't had many save situations in the last couple of weeks and your closer has been sitting on the bench on the bench during that time. This would force you to use him in a non-save situation to get him some work before a little "stale icon" appears next to his name...
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:58 PM   #2
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That would be a good idea, but it would also require Markus to add "staleness" to the game from scratch.

Yes, there is "rust", but it is only a factor after long-term (2 weeks plus, I think) injuries and the offseason.
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:51 PM   #3
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Rather than have an indicator I'd prefer check-boxes that say, "use today" and "only if needed" to manage pitcher use. I achieve this in a backwards way by benching overused pitchers for some games. That's risky so it would be better to have a positive option.

I hope v15 gives us more options to manage relief pitching. Nothing infuriates me more than seeing the AI leave a perfectly good MR unused for days while overusing the set up guys.
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Old 04-09-2014, 09:52 PM   #4
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I dunno, pitchers throw side sessions to keep in shape, and we can presume that's happening in the background in OOTP. Is there any proof that pitchers do poorly after a slightly longer, but non-injury-related layoff?
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Old 04-10-2014, 06:01 AM   #5
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I dunno, pitchers throw side sessions to keep in shape, and we can presume that's happening in the background in OOTP. Is there any proof that pitchers do poorly after a slightly longer, but non-injury-related layoff?
This.

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Old 04-10-2014, 01:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
This.

I've seen a lot of relief pitchers come into a game "just to get some work in" I've also seen closers brought into non-save situations to get work in and have meltdowns.

I've also seen starters who have missed a turn or two in the rotation or have had an extra day off due to rain outs, etc been not as sharp. The major example I can think of was Pedro Martinez brought on in relief in game 7 of the 2004 ALCS to "get some work" He was also rusty.

Just sayin' I think it should be accounted for in the game.

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Old 04-10-2014, 03:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by drksd4848 View Post
I've also seen starters who have missed a turn or two in the rotation or have had an extra day off due to rain outs, etc been not as sharp. The major example I can think of was Pedro Martinez brought on in relief in game 7 of the 2004 ALCS to "get some work" He was also rusty.
Are you kidding me? Pedro was not brought in to Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS to 'get some work in'. He 'got some work in' two days prior to that when he started Game 5 and threw 111 pitches. He came into Game 7 because Boston used every one of their relievers in Game 5, used Foulke and Arroyo again in Game 6, and had the best pitcher of the 21st century in their pen and it was an elimination game in the ALCS against the Yankees. Pedro was bad in Game 7 because he'd thrown 111 pitches two days earlier, not because he was 'rusty'.

As to your wider point -- I don't doubt that there are times when relievers have struggled after not having pitched in a game for a week or two or whatever. That's what relievers are like: they struggle sometimes, in all imaginable circumstances. Unless you can find some hard evidence that reliever performance correlates with days of rest (this information is all in bb-ref's game logs so you can certainly look) I don't think OOTP should be presuming the effect exists. League-wide splits for last season suggest that relievers had better numbers after six or more days rest than after just one or two. There's some noise here I guess because 'rested' pitchers includes those who have been on the DL and, I believe, minor leaguers getting a call-up. As well as everyone's first outing of the season.

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Old 04-10-2014, 03:42 PM   #8
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I think a lot of time the closer coming in to get to get some work in only happens because he's rested but the rest of the bullpen is less rested.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
Rather than have an indicator I'd prefer check-boxes that say, "use today" and "only if needed" to manage pitcher use. I achieve this in a backwards way by benching overused pitchers for some games. That's risky so it would be better to have a positive option.

I hope v15 gives us more options to manage relief pitching. Nothing infuriates me more than seeing the AI leave a perfectly good MR unused for days while overusing the set up guys.
Seconded.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by struggles_mightily View Post
Are you kidding me? Pedro was not brought in to Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS to 'get some work in'. He 'got some work in' two days prior to that when he started Game 5 and threw 111 pitches. He came into Game 7 because Boston used every one of their relievers in Game 5, used Foulke and Arroyo again in Game 6, and had the best pitcher of the 21st century in their pen and it was an elimination game in the ALCS against the Yankees. Pedro was bad in Game 7 because he'd thrown 111 pitches two days earlier, not because he was 'rusty'.

As to your wider point -- I don't doubt that there are times when relievers have struggled after not having pitched in a game for a week or two or whatever. That's what relievers are like: they struggle sometimes, in all imaginable circumstances. Unless you can find some hard evidence that reliever performance correlates with days of rest (this information is all in bb-ref's game logs so you can certainly look) I don't think OOTP should be presuming the effect exists. League-wide splits for last season suggest that relievers had better numbers after six or more days rest than after just one or two. There's some noise here I guess because 'rested' pitchers includes those who have been on the DL and, I believe, minor leaguers getting a call-up. As well as everyone's first outing of the season.
We are starting to get into OOTP thumb sucking bed wetter territory here. Nobody needs to get their undies in a snit over this. No need for flames. It was just a suggestion. That's all. People don't like it, or don't want then fine.

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Old 04-10-2014, 05:06 PM   #11
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We are starting to get into OOTP bed wetter territory here. Nobody needs to get their undies in a snit over this. It was just a suggestion. That's all.
Right, so thinking that x should be in the game is 'just a suggestion' and coming up with good arguments for it not being in the game is 'wetting the bed'. Way to raise the standard of discourse. I am actively opposed to this being in the game -- to me it's on the same level as, say, giving a player a 'confidence' rating and having their stats be influenced by that. But, as a Red Sox fan, I was more amazed by your posting such a bizarre interpretation of the 2004 ALCS and making that central to your point.

Yes, I know LOL IT'S THE INTERNET LOL JUST A GAME LOL UNDIES but we are allowed to do research, allowed to fact-check before posting, and allowed to not make sucky posts. I will continue trying to do all that stuff, thx.

Edit: Where did I flame you? I asked 'are you kidding me?' Like, I dunno, it's surprising to see someone use one data point in support of their argument, and not to bother fact-checking the accuracy of that data-point. Even moreso when that data point is an aspect of pretty major recent baseball history. Not a 'flame', no name-calling, no swearz, no reference to your undergarments, just genuine surprise. Gotta love people who can call you a 'thumb sucking bed wetter' whilst getting all self-righteous about 'flaming'.

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Old 04-10-2014, 05:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by drksd4848 View Post
We are starting to get into OOTP thumb sucking bed wetter territory here. Nobody needs to get their undies in a snit over this. No need for flames. It was just a suggestion. That's all. People don't like it, or don't want then fine.
Dude, unsnit your own undies. Given that there all kinds of changes that could be made, and only so many that can get made, suggestions are going to be critically evaluated. If you still think this is a high priority change, make your case. If you've changed your mind, say so. Don't be a wuss.

And the idea that Pedro was in game 7 to "get the rust off" ... uh, no.
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:47 PM   #13
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I'll admit, I would kind of like it if the existing offseason/long-term injury rust system were applied in-season. Maybe at half-strength though since the guys ARE working on stuff even if they don't play.

Though, Markus would have to make a way for the AI to recognize players "rust level" and take it into account, which opens a whole other can of worms.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:52 AM   #14
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At this point, I believe that Markus and his team can code pretty much anything :-)

The question is how to prioritize what they're coding...will this expand the revenue base? Probably not. I personally think it would be neat and add some immersion value, but not as much as some of the other things they are working on.

FWIW, I believe the old apba baseball for windows had player status levels of: ready / tired / exhausted / itchy. The "itchy" status was a way to encourage the player to actually use the full 25 man roster, and I liked it as a manager.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:33 PM   #15
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The question is how to prioritize what they're coding...will this expand the revenue base? Probably not. I personally think it would be neat and add some immersion value, but not as much as some of the other things they are working on.
I have no problem with adding immersion value, obviously. For me the question is just: do we only try to model things in OOTP that studies suggest are real factors in real baseball or do we go by... some other process of determining what gameplay aspects should be in the game? I prefer the former model, modelling stuff that reputable studies suggest is 'real', even acknowledging that this is a moving target and some 'real' stuff can't be included because OOTP is not in fact real (in particular, it doesn't work on a physics model).

This is both because I like realism and because the alternative just seems to be including a clutch of things that people ask for enough, or strike Markus in the right way or whatever, and denying other things just because, I dunno, people don't support them enough or they're hard to code or whatever. It just seems kind of arbitrary, and I'd like some kind of relatively objective guide for what should go in. Like, if someone said "clutch hitting should go in the game!" I would be opposed to that even though it might be fun and in a way 'useful' to have another factor on which to try to evaluate players.

Other people are welcome to value other things -- like what 'feels' right or adding more layers of gameplay strategy -- but I just sort of can't relate to that or whatever.

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Old 04-14-2014, 02:22 AM   #16
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Rather than have an indicator I'd prefer check-boxes that say, "use today" and "only if needed" to manage pitcher use. I achieve this in a backwards way by benching overused pitchers for some games. That's risky so it would be better to have a positive option.

I hope v15 gives us more options to manage relief pitching. Nothing infuriates me more than seeing the AI leave a perfectly good MR unused for days while overusing the set up guys.


I agree that something needs to be re-worked in terms of how the AI uses the bullpen on the minor league teams. It really annoys me seeing a good portion of my relievers being 'yellow/tired' nearly all season long, meanwhile there is an arm or two that has like 5IP total for the year!


Maybe something in the global strategy section...in addition to the stuff like 'hook reliever/starter frequency', 'favor LH/RH splits', etc...


I'd like to see some sort of favor rested arms in the bullpen where we can experiment with the thresholds and try to find a sweet spot that works for our specific managerial preference.
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