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Old 02-23-2018, 02:02 PM   #1
One Post Wonder
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Pitch types, Pitch types, Pitch types (and velocity)

I've been looking around, and seen surprisingly little discussion about this topic. I'm guessing that most people are just looking at stuff, control, movement along with AI recommendation to determine how to use their pitchers.

But the types of pitches a guy throws, if they affect stats like I think they do, are a big deal. A pitcher with a huge platoon split is not going to make it as a starter or closer.

I'd like to have a place (if there is already a place then please direct me there), where there are pitch types listed and their effects as you see it.

A couple more things, too. How is it determined what pitch a guy throws at any given time? Like would a catcher with high ability cause the pitcher to use more offspeed stuff and fewer sliders against opposite handed batters?

And what are your thoughts on velocity? It seems like for a lot of you, velocity > pitch quality. For me, the opposite is true. I only look at velocity when drafting and look for at the very least 87-89, more as just a minimum requirement, as opposed to picking the hardest throwers I can find.

Anyway, this is what I think are the effects of different pitches (based on reading stuff about the real game, not ootp research):

High Platoon Differential

  • Slider
  • Sinker (Also forkball, split finger fastball) - BTW for those of you who play, why is that? I figured sinkers would be neutral.

Normal platoon differential

  • Fastball
  • Cut Fastball

No platoon differential
  • Knuckleball

Slight Reverse differential

  • Curveball

Strong Reverse differential
  • Change
  • Screwball

Does the above match what you guys have experienced?

I love pitchers in this game, man.. Sometimes I wish I could just work with them and leave position players to the AI. Position players are easy to project. But with pitchers there are so many variable factors and they all come together in a way, if you know what you're doing, that makes perfect sense. Pitchers are beautiful.

Last edited by One Post Wonder; 02-23-2018 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 02-23-2018, 02:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Post Wonder View Post
I'd like to have a place (if there is already a place then please direct me there), where there are pitch types listed and their effects as you see it.
They are listed in the player editor. Change them up and a pitchers rating changes.
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Old 02-23-2018, 02:36 PM   #3
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Well, how about that? As I edit, it even shows right underneath, in what way the ratings will change.

I was really doing that the hard way. Thanks!

Edit* - But still, how are these values used when pitching to a batter? Do you have an at-bat, and the game uses a composite of these values to determine the platoon differential of that batter? Or is it done pitch by pitch? And if so, is the pitcher smart enough to tend to use the more favorable pitches against the appropriate hitters?

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Old 02-23-2018, 07:41 PM   #4
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there are various factors... the final stuff rating per pitch that you see in profile is how the pitch types are used in game (see player editor's note at top of stuff section / manual probably too).

i cannot say if the 'parts' of that profile stuff ratings per pitch are not also used elsewhere in the equation of a pitch being thrown to a batter, but it would have to make sense... i.e. no double dipping of the same force.

the editor notes that the stuff you see on profile is different than the stuff you see in the editor. velo, gb%, and the 'raw' pitch values in the editor add up to those value in the profile.

with 100% accuracy the profile stuff is all that matters, per pitch that is. they throw a screwball at Xrating vs LHB and whatever else is relevant.

environment, like wind? possibly affects distance ball travels but probably not doing much for ~60' and a fraction of a second. maybe 30mph+ would show a blip?

so, a FB on the profile page that is 80/100 all work the same, assuming all other factors are equal and remaining the same -- whether 80mph or 100mph. (assume velocity is not used elsewhere, and would not make apparent sense to double dip here)

if it was 100% broken down into individual and exlusive forces, velo would be its own 'thing' but i believe it's incorporated into stuff atm.


you can obviosuly see how to infer splits from pitches by making changes in the editor... you can do this per pitch with other things like Velo and GB% (anything else mentioned as part of end-use stuff value you see in profile? that too). so you can see if gb% helps hurts and how much it helps/hurts at various levels of the other factors etc etc... probably won't be the same per pitch, but if it is it will become evident quickly...

knuckleball may be drastically different in various ways... i can say for sure a high-end KB has one of the beast BABIP against of any pitch. plus, the stamina boost -- kb pitchers get more pitches/stamina before getting tired. if it's slightly below average on hr/9 i wouldn't be surprised, but nothign detrimental at a high value KB stuff.

any type of RL statistical reference you can find on various types of pitches will have a high probability of translating to the game. not all urban myths and dogma will, but a good portion of it will since baseball, despite being obstinately spiteful of progressive thought, has honed in within a smallish % of optimal already for most aspects of baseball. (plus, constant change makes that an impossible endeavor)

Last edited by NoOne; 02-23-2018 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Post Wonder View Post
I've been looking around, and seen surprisingly little discussion about this topic. I'm guessing that most people are just looking at stuff, control, movement along with AI recommendation to determine how to use their pitchers.

But the types of pitches a guy throws, if they affect stats like I think they do, are a big deal. A pitcher with a huge platoon split is not going to make it as a starter or closer.
Don Drysdale had a big platoon split. Gossage had a higher split. Bob Gibson's was even higher. And Rivera, who primarily threw a cutter must of his career, did not have a "normal" platoon differential. His cutter was much more effective on lefties than righties, so much so that he had a large reverse platoon split.

If you meant that below average pitchers who have huge platoon splits are not going to make it as a starter or closer, then yes, I think that's likely, at least in the long term.

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Old 02-26-2018, 03:37 PM   #6
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when editing:

some things require you to leave the page and come back to see the changes... most things update immediately as you change them...

some changes will cause a split to occur with movement and control -- you change a pitch or add a pitch and those values change without any editting.

so beware of auto-changes or changes that require a refresh of the screen, or you'll make some inferences that are wrong due to what you read.

3b/2b ration i believe is this way - the projected stats won't change until you refresh screen one way or another... there's somethign with pitching that is this way i am just having a brain fart right now. if you chagne somethign drastically and stats don't update, then it's 'that'

when in doubt, click player stats then back to editor... if it changes you know that's what i'm talking about. if it stays the same, no need.

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Old 02-26-2018, 04:16 PM   #7
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Here's a neat link looking at DL Stints related to pitches & platoon splits: https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a...hangeup-011915

I'm curious if having a high fastball/lower change up creates a better K/9 rate. Pedro Martinez once mentioned that at his peak there was something like a 15-17 MPH difference between his rising fastball and change up, which is just filthy considering change ups often look like fastballs coming out of the hand.

You also had pitchers like Randy Johnson who utilized hard, heavy Sliders to help impact their K/9 during their career.
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnBTVS View Post
Here's a neat link looking at DL Stints related to pitches & platoon splits: https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a...hangeup-011915

I'm curious if having a high fastball/lower change up creates a better K/9 rate. Pedro Martinez once mentioned that at his peak there was something like a 15-17 MPH difference between his rising fastball and change up, which is just filthy considering change ups often look like fastballs coming out of the hand.

You also had pitchers like Randy Johnson who utilized hard, heavy Sliders to help impact their K/9 during their career.
cool article.. i've always look for pitchers that handle both L/R well via their pitch selection and how ootp has tehm split. the main reason i love the curveball so much on my pitchers.

pretty sure velo isn't necessary, even if it's a big piece of the puizzle for K-rates.

i've had 2 kb'ers lately, one just completed a 20+ career, 92-94 kb, cb ugh can't recall if it had a 3rd pitch... but, it amounted to ~5 to 7 k/9 each year. maybe an 8.0k/9 max-ish

next guy, not as good of a kb, 80-82mph (low 80s, no higher than 82-84mph velo), and a changeup that's rated okay-to-well and a ??? third pitch maybe of similar quality i can't recall by rote-- ~11+k/9 .. 2 season so far, no slowing down. what i though to be ~50/50 guy is turning out better than the 20+ year guy...too bad he is starting a few years later age-wise.

side note: for the first time ever i'm about to have 2 ~good Kb'ers that can win cy youngs 5+ time in career type quality. the second one should hit hte majors in next year or so. i'm going to have 10-15years of ~300ip 1-2 punch... LoL i'm only going to need ~3 RP to cover the bullpen innings. i think this is the last thing i'll do in ootp18 - finish their careers. this league will hit ~70plus years, woot. but, thats' why i am confusing their pitch selectiosn... have 3 guys in memory and it's all jumbled.. 1 'just' retired.

the example kinda blows that theory out of the water, BUT a KB is an odd pitch to say the least. other kb'ers i've had don't have this kind of k-rate without velocity... in fact i rarely see high strikeout guys doing this with lower velocity (< ?95?)... >max stuff and "right" pitch types being an exception. i want to say i see that trend too with a high velo and rated fb-chup combo. i used to think the same thing, until this guy.

I think something else is in the equation due to disparate results. maybe some sort of hidden pitcher mentality/patience, or tied to intelligence/personality stuff? if they dug that deep into the rabbit hole. ie some guys go for K's instead of being smart and that could be represented in pitch selection algorythms (or however it works out in logic per throw) with a variable just as easily as anything else.

edit: stats prove myth -- slider and changeups are notoriously evil pitches on the arm/elbow/shoulder. all that extra torque to create spin within an already awkward body movement (the human body can actually throw harder underhand, the softball girls actually have it "right") although i'm not sure it's conducive to "pitching down" or if that would even matter... you can put way more wicked spin on it too. it's a more *natural* movement than overhand and can create more torque, quantitative, not opinion.

when i was growing up, they didn't allow kids to throw anything with spin. if the ball moved too much the team got a warning.. then the pitcher would be removed if he continued to do it.

Last edited by NoOne; 02-26-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 03-01-2018, 12:07 AM   #9
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actually loaded up the game recently... check out htis k-rate wiht a 84-86mph velo. i was off... the AAA guy is cb/chgup ~60/100ish and max KB and lower velo of 80-82 or 82-84 range.. he's got better control, less movement. it'll be close if he's as dominant. these two will give me a good idea of max vs max+ KB.

think ~12.0 k/9 ish is the single season record after ~50+ years - maybe a tenth or two higher. anythign 10+ is elite in this league. probably slightly lower K's than default LT's with well-callibrated LTM - for comparison.

i wasted a season.. he wouldn't have been a 25w / 2.35 the previous year but he may have been 20+ and ~3ish ERA in hindsight... i didn't think his control was good enough, but it didn't change much in the year between. it was during that first full year that it improved as the season wore on.

some guys just are surprising.. a reminder to put the toe in the water sooner with such great results. you can see the mediocry AAA #'s though.. then his september calluip with ~same control, slight improvement elsewhere etc - absolutely dominant and continued into next year with ~same ratings.
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