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Old 02-01-2014, 07:50 AM   #1
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Defense! Defense! Defense!

Really hoping defense finally gets some love in OOTP15. The AI really needs to do a better job of considering defense when building rosters, setting lineups and when making in game substitutions. It's time that the AI values the Mark Belangers, Ozzie Smiths, Paul Blairs and Luis Aparicios of the world. This goes for fictional as well. In fact, it's high time that the fictional game quits creating tons of poor fielding poor hit players rated to play all over the field defensively.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:03 PM   #2
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Just a better AI when it comes to setting lineups would go a long way.

Recently had a game in which my opponent fielded a poor defensive catcher because their other, better catcher was playing first base that day. ...Which would make sense, except for the fact that the weaker catcher was a better first baseman than the stronger catcher. The defensive AI needs a ton of work.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:17 PM   #3
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Just a better AI when it comes to setting lineups would go a long way.

Recently had a game in which my opponent fielded a poor defensive catcher because their other, better catcher was playing first base that day. ...Which would make sense, except for the fact that the weaker catcher was a better first baseman than the stronger catcher. The defensive AI needs a ton of work.

have to agree on this one. I had a year where AI kept playing my back up defensive catcher at 1B all the time, even though he was hitting .240 OBP (veteran in decline)... I kept trying different changes. He wasn't even getting regular starts at C.
I got so tired, I DFAed him, because AI kept putting him in the line-up.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:26 PM   #4
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The game fails to prioritize defense at key defensive positions (C, 2B, SS, CF). This results in lineups, depth charts, and substitutions that are completely unrealistic. When a shortstop is replaced in real baseball, he will be replaced by the backup shortstop, not by a first baseman who can barely play the position. OOTP needs to fix this by setting defensive minimum values at the key defensive positions.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-01-2014, 02:37 PM   #5
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The game fails to prioritize defense at key defensive positions (C, 2B, SS, CF). This results in lineups, depth charts, and substitutions that are completely unrealistic. When a shortstop is replaced in real baseball, he will be replaced by the backup shortstop, not by a first baseman who can barely play the position. OOTP needs to fix this by setting defensive minimum values at the key defensive positions.
OOTP seems to completely ignore defence when making in-game substitutions. That needs to change.

Say your starting SS is rated 15/20 there, and your starting 2B is rated 16 at 2B and 13 at SS, and you have a weak hitting utility guy on the bench who's rated 19 at 2B and 11 at SS, then what should happen if your SS comes out (especially late in a game) is your 2B should move over to Short and the utility guy should come in at second to give you the best defence overall. The AI never seems to do that.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
Really hoping defense finally gets some love in OOTP15. The AI really needs to do a better job of considering defense when building rosters, setting lineups and when making in game substitutions. It's time that the AI values the Mark Belangers, Ozzie Smiths, Paul Blairs and Luis Aparicios of the world. This goes for fictional as well. In fact, it's high time that the fictional game quits creating tons of poor fielding poor hit players rated to play all over the field defensively.
BBM

Is part of the problem that OOTP rates players at too many different positions? Or is that what you mean, David? This would explain why the problem is less apparent in historical leagues.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:15 AM   #7
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Yes this area is my main gripe with the game. Hope it got some love for 15!
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
Really hoping defense finally gets some love in OOTP15. The AI really needs to do a better job of considering defense when building rosters, setting lineups and when making in game substitutions. It's time that the AI values the Mark Belangers, Ozzie Smiths, Paul Blairs and Luis Aparicios of the world. This goes for fictional as well. In fact, it's high time that the fictional game quits creating tons of poor fielding poor hit players rated to play all over the field defensively.
This especially
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Old 02-02-2014, 07:58 AM   #9
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Is part of the problem that OOTP rates players at too many different positions?
That's certainly been suggested in the past. I don't know if anyone got any concrete numbers for it though.
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Old 02-02-2014, 08:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
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BBM

Is part of the problem that OOTP rates players at too many different positions? Or is that what you mean, David? This would explain why the problem is less apparent in historical leagues.
Yes, I think the fictional game creates way too many multiple position players. I'm not talking about guys rated to play 2 or 3 outfield positions or a shortstop rated to play 2B and or 3B. I'm talking about the shortstop rated at every infield position, plus 2 or more of the outfield positions. Way too many 2B, SS shortstop types are rated at 1B. If a guy has poor fielding rating all over the field, he better be able to hit or he should never be end up on a roster-----Ryan Raburn(though as a Tiger fan, well nevermind) or if he struggles at the plate he should be a John McDonald type. Hope this makes sense.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
Really hoping defense finally gets some love in OOTP15. The AI really needs to do a better job of considering defense when building rosters, setting lineups and when making in game substitutions. It's time that the AI values the Mark Belangers, Ozzie Smiths, Paul Blairs and Luis Aparicios of the world. This goes for fictional as well. In fact, it's high time that the fictional game quits creating tons of poor fielding poor hit players rated to play all over the field defensively.
The AI already properly values defense... it uses the same mechanisms which value the defensive part in WAR calculations.

Anyway, how valuable defense is in the end is rather subjective, and it seems you disagree with the way the AI works. I don't.

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Old 02-02-2014, 09:03 AM   #12
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Yes, I think the fictional game creates way too many multiple position players. I'm not talking about guys rated to play 2 or 3 outfield positions or a shortstop rated to play 2B and or 3B. I'm talking about the shortstop rated at every infield position, plus 2 or more of the outfield positions. Way too many 2B, SS shortstop types are rated at 1B. If a guy has poor fielding rating all over the field, he better be able to hit or he should never be end up on a roster-----Ryan Raburn(though as a Tiger fan, well nevermind) or if he struggles at the plate he should be a John McDonald type. Hope this makes sense.
This is again something that is highly subjective. For me the number of super-utility players in fictional games is just right.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:19 AM   #13
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This is again something that is highly subjective. For me the number of super-utility players in fictional games is just right.
When you get a chance, you may want to create a few historical seasons and compare real to fictional.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:38 AM   #14
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When you get a chance, you may want to create a few historical seasons and compare real to fictional.
Well, if you give me some specific real examples and compare those to fictional leagues, in a big enough sample size, then I may be convinced to change the defaults. However, keep in mind that the position ratings of historical players represent how they were actually used in real life, which is no indication of how they could have been used. Fictional players on the other hand should be more versatile, all here counts how the AI uses them. So you'd need to compare stats, i.e. how many players were used at 4+ positions during a season, both in historical sims and fictional sims.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:26 AM   #15
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Well, if you give me some specific real examples and compare those to fictional leagues, in a big enough sample size, then I may be convinced to change the defaults. However, keep in mind that the position ratings of historical players represent how they were actually used in real life, which is no indication of how they could have been used. Fictional players on the other hand should be more versatile, all here counts how the AI uses them. So you'd need to compare stats, i.e. how many players were used at 4+ positions during a season, both in historical sims and fictional sims.
You know what, that's a very good point that I hadn't thought about. Look at Xander Boegarts right now - there's a big debate going on over whether he's going to play 3B or SS. Invariably, he's going to be rated at both positions in OOTP15. But who's to say that, if Pedroia gets hurt in April, they won't try to slot him into 2B? Maybe he could be a very good second baseman. But chances are, with Pedroia locked up long-term, we'll never see Boegarts playing second, so he's never going to be rated there. Meanwhile, fictional players aren't constrained like this.

I think the issue that David and a lot of others have is prospects coming out of the draft rated at four or five different positions. A guy sliding over and becoming a second baseman while still being rated at third is very possible, but that would tend to happen in the minors; he'd be looked at solely as a 3B (or possibly a SS) with good tools on the draft board. Maybe someone would look at him and say, "hey, he could potentially turn into a second baseman," but having ratings at all those positions implies experience at all those positions.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:16 AM   #16
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When you get a chance, you may want to create a few historical seasons and compare real to fictional.
I've run enough to believe Markus is correct.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-02-2014, 11:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
The AI already properly values defense... it uses the same mechanisms which value the defensive part in WAR calculations.

Anyway, how valuable defense is in the end is rather subjective, and it seems you disagree with the way the AI works. I don't.
In league after league my good-glove, groundball-pitcher OOTP teams consistently beat the crap out of AI teams, so I'll disagree with the way the AI works on this one.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-02-2014, 11:30 AM   #18
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I think the issue that David and a lot of others have is prospects coming out of the draft rated at four or five different positions. A guy sliding over and becoming a second baseman while still being rated at third is very possible, but that would tend to happen in the minors; he'd be looked at solely as a 3B (or possibly a SS) with good tools on the draft board. Maybe someone would look at him and say, "hey, he could potentially turn into a second baseman," but having ratings at all those positions implies experience at all those positions.
Markus did say in the post you quoted "all here counts how the AI uses them". So I wonder if without multiple positions the AI is not going to get all it can from players coming in?

Sure it's easy for you or me to try to train a player to move to a different position if he doesn't come in rated for it but shows us the skills to do it but how does the AI handle it if Markus makes a change here?

Not saying it shouldn't be looked into and improvement isn't needed. I don't have any data that says it should or shouldn't and since I don't have an issue with things "as they are" I'm not going to try to come up with it. I just worry a bit about how the AI might handle it if positions are "trimmed" back.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:35 AM   #19
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Markus did say in the post you quoted "all here counts how the AI uses them". So I wonder if without multiple positions the AI is not going to get all it can from players coming in?

Sure it's easy for you or me to try to train a player to move to a different position if he doesn't come in rated for it but shows us the skills to do it but how does the AI handle it if Markus makes a change here?

Not saying it shouldn't be looked into and improvement isn't needed. I don't have any data that says it should or shouldn't and since I don't have an issue with things "as they are" I'm not going to try to come up with it. I just worry a bit about how the AI might handle it if positions are "trimmed" back.
Oh, I agree. Personally, I have no problem with the number of "utility" players the game creates - my only issue regarding defense is the AI's substitution logic. I was just trying to explain the situation as a lot of people perceive it. But that is a very good point about AI usage - I could certainly believe that the AI has a hard time "teaching" players a new position.
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Old 02-02-2014, 12:04 PM   #20
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I've run enough to believe Markus is correct.
Personally, I know your full of it.
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