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Old 02-02-2014, 12:11 PM   #21
David Watts
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
You know what, that's a very good point that I hadn't thought about. Look at Xander Boegarts right now - there's a big debate going on over whether he's going to play 3B or SS. Invariably, he's going to be rated at both positions in OOTP15. But who's to say that, if Pedroia gets hurt in April, they won't try to slot him into 2B? Maybe he could be a very good second baseman. But chances are, with Pedroia locked up long-term, we'll never see Boegarts playing second, so he's never going to be rated there. Meanwhile, fictional players aren't constrained like this.

I think the issue that David and a lot of others have is prospects coming out of the draft rated at four or five different positions. A guy sliding over and becoming a second baseman while still being rated at third is very possible, but that would tend to happen in the minors; he'd be looked at solely as a 3B (or possibly a SS) with good tools on the draft board. Maybe someone would look at him and say, "hey, he could potentially turn into a second baseman," but having ratings at all those positions implies experience at all those positions.
Once again, given a different perspective on things, I can see that I'm probably wrong on my "too many multi position" position statement when it comes to fictional leagues. Comparing fictional leagues to historical is probably not the way to go about deciding whether or not there are too many and what Markus said does make a ton of sense. Maybe what we need to see is multi position players losing ratings over time at certain positions they aren't being used at. I think the game may do to a certain extent as it is.
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Old 02-02-2014, 12:52 PM   #22
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Personally, I know your full of it.
LOL. I have run league after league since 6.5 and actively looked for utility players. Have you? No, of course not, but you sit there with your small sample size confirmation bias results and insult someone who actually has done the work AND disagree with Markus as well.

Sorry, you lose.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-02-2014, 12:55 PM   #23
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I can see that I'm probably wrong on my "too many multi position" position statement
You're wrong, not just probably wrong. Believe Markus if won't believe me.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 02-02-2014, 01:40 PM   #24
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Yea, I am in agreement that the AI lineup/sub needs work, I am seeing on a somewhat regular basis players playing positions that they have no rating for? I had a pitcher catch a full game when my backup was available!
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:44 PM   #25
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I don't really have that many complaints about the lineup selection in general. I wouldn't mind the AI bending a little more toward defense up the middle, but it's not bad. Where it gets off is in-game substitutions and injury replacements, IMO.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:25 AM   #26
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What we need for defence is a "late game lineup" or whatever you want to call it. This way we can take advantage of multi position eligible players. The AI would rarely move a guy like Ben Zobrist from say 2B to the OF, but with a defensive lineup you'd be able to set changes like that.

You could even have it like the RP option where some people use the D lineup in the 7th, others in the 8th or even in the 9th.

It's much easier to just choose the defensive lineup you want then to update the AI.

Put another way, if I have this lineup in the 7th:

SS - Li
3B - LeBron
2B - Vidro

The game will either replace Vidro, or LeBron. What I want to see on a consistent basis, however, is this:

SS - Li
3B - IF Backup
2B - LeBron

This is one area the game really lacks. Having a defensive/late game lineup would make things so much easier and more effective. We've all seen how bad the AI is with defensive substitutions, it'd be much better if we could just choose how we want to set up late game defences. And multi-position players would be much more valuable because they would be used properly.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #27
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Huh... I have found that I don't think players are rated at ENOUGH positions.

Really, how many players shouldn't have at least a rudimentary rating at 1B or LF? I don't mean they should be GOOD at it necessarily, but better than zero.

Or, as a more specific example, how does someone get an 18 or so at SS but can't play 3B or 2B at all?

Any player who has any defensive skill whatsoever should having multiple position ratings.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:53 AM   #28
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FWIW....I've just checked the 1924 NL to get an idea of players used at each position. The totals (8 teams) were C: 32 1B: 25 2B: 36 3B: 33 SS: 29 LF: 48 CF 47 RF: 48.


I then checked a season from my fictional league which is set up to roughly reflect this period of baseball history.....the totals (8 teams) were...
C: 29 1B: 81 2B: 68 3B: 69 SS: 62 LF: 72 CF: 59 RF: 76


I have "Rarely" pinch hit for position players and "Very Rarely" for defensive substitutions....one team was controlled by me and I used fewer than the league average at every position. Several teams used between 10 and 14 players at 1B (real life average 3).


Admittedly small sample size.
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:14 PM   #29
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Defense! Defense! Defense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpcarmona View Post
I am seeing on a somewhat regular basis players playing positions that they have no rating for?

Yup Same for me.

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Old 02-05-2014, 12:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpriske View Post
Huh... I have found that I don't think players are rated at ENOUGH positions.

Really, how many players shouldn't have at least a rudimentary rating at 1B or LF? I don't mean they should be GOOD at it necessarily, but better than zero.

Or, as a more specific example, how does someone get an 18 or so at SS but can't play 3B or 2B at all?

Any player who has any defensive skill whatsoever should having multiple position ratings.
I'd rather see player defense be a much more current/potential system, with the ratings moving up and down heavily depending on usage.

If you currently play a position a lot, your rating increases towards the potential. If you don't play it, then it decreases. But everyone should basically be rated at all positions - I mean, sure, Prince Fielder will be a 0 at SS, but it sort of should exist for him anyways.

The rate that you increase could be dependant on skill, past experience, the position itself, etc... So you could have a guy like Bautista, who plays a few innings a year at 3B, his current rating there should be low. But he should have some potential there, so that if you shifted to play him there for a few weeks, he would get back to his max.

With this, you would have more players who really don't have a rating at multiple positions, so the AI weird substitution logic should actually improve (I won't be upset that it didn't shift my 2B to SS, since my starting 2B hasn't actually played SS in the last 5 years, so will be rated very low in current skill). But it also means that you get an idea if you'll be able to shift a guy around the field - players do move all the time, but Machado probably won't take an inning at SS at Gold-Glove level D if he hasn't played it regularly for the past year.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
Just a better AI when it comes to setting lineups would go a long way.

Recently had a game in which my opponent fielded a poor defensive catcher because their other, better catcher was playing first base that day. ...Which would make sense, except for the fact that the weaker catcher was a better first baseman than the stronger catcher. The defensive AI needs a ton of work.
Along with this thought: The opposing team is resting its lead-off hitter and the catcher is put in the lead-off role. But his OBA is like .300 and he's slow. I think the batting order AI needs a little work as well.
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:30 AM   #32
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IMHO,

I don't think every good defensive player should be able to play every least defensive position because of the simple fact that I seen some players with ok defensive ratings play a position that they are are not rated at and do well..

eventually utility players won't be special anymore if every player could play a lot of multiple positions.

Doesn't a player gain a rating at a position once he plays there for awhile? So it isn't like that rating is hard coded. I've also seen the AI switch Jimmy Rollins to LF once he got Older. He also gained a rating for that position.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by rpriske View Post
Huh... I have found that I don't think players are rated at ENOUGH positions.

Really, how many players shouldn't have at least a rudimentary rating at 1B or LF? I don't mean they should be GOOD at it necessarily, but better than zero.

Or, as a more specific example, how does someone get an 18 or so at SS but can't play 3B or 2B at all?

Any player who has any defensive skill whatsoever should having multiple position ratings.
That would kind of kill the purpose of having a position

BUT

it is ingrained in the program, that a SS can learn 2B pretty easily even if he has 0 experience and that can be done in the minors, which makes them beneficial for defensive skills as well.

I guess you need the suspension of disbelief, and that talented kid that came out with a 19 rating at SS? Just think about it as if he's been playing there since he was 12, his muscle memory is almost instinct and if you put him at 2B, he would instinctively move right to cover 2nd, even if it wasa a 1 second lapse, he might overthrow 1B or throw too hard into the dirt but he is talented enough to learn 2B over time

I think work ethic and intelligence play a role in this, if not they should.

Now the opposite, a stone hand RF who can't scoop for anything and can stretch 2 inches. He should not be able to learn 1B easily, and he would be a detrimit in LF where he would get more chances.

Anyway, that's how I think of it.

And Michael piggybacked me in posting but he brought up a good point about older players

They need to fix skill degrading for older players, if he is an old SS, he shouldn't lose so much range, arm and double play that he can't play ANY position
I've seen that way too much

and rarely have I've seen a 35 and older player go from 3B to 1B even if I gave him a 10 rating at 1B, usually he loses range so much he can't play 1B if 100 or less experience

Same goes with a CF playing LF or RF

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Old 02-06-2014, 10:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, if you give me some specific real examples and compare those to fictional leagues, in a big enough sample size, then I may be convinced to change the defaults. However, keep in mind that the position ratings of historical players represent how they were actually used in real life, which is no indication of how they could have been used. Fictional players on the other hand should be more versatile, all here counts how the AI uses them. So you'd need to compare stats, i.e. how many players were used at 4+ positions during a season, both in historical sims and fictional sims.
Markus, the one big issue is the Manager tendencies

If you have a manager that LOVES defense and prospects than a veteran SS who hits 40 HRs but has a range of 5 (out of 10) should NOT be playing short over a .230 prospect hitter with 20 range and 15 to 20 error,Dp,arm

Seems you have skewed this so far to sabermetrics that these real life baseball applications of defense or using more Vets or prospects and especially Batting average over OBP...I have not seen one .300/.330 hitter start over a .250/.380 hitter and when I force the AI to start player 1, player 2 starts every 2nd day
That is 100 yrs of baseball being lost in the process.

I have no qualms about using skewed stats like WAR and VORP, as that is your demographic, but when you give us historical guys a bone with manager tendencies where we feel we can fix that myopic view in historical and baseball context, it doesn't work.

Therefore it is a vanilla product...sure I might have 12,000 players over the course of a fictional 50 year league, but how different is player 23 from 1901 different from player 11871 from 1951?


In the extreme case above, where a manager loves prospects and defense (as in all the way left) over vets and defense, then in 1991 that team should pick Omar Vizquel to start over Cal Ripken 10 out of 10 times with Cal starting only if Omar is tired..that should increase the more prospect and defense gets closer to center.
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Old 03-11-2014, 04:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Simmo13 View Post
I have "Rarely" pinch hit for position players and "Very Rarely" for defensive substitutions....one team was controlled by me and I used fewer than the league average at every position. Several teams used between 10 and 14 players at 1B (real life average 3).

Admittedly small sample size.
This has been my experience, also.

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Along with this thought: The opposing team is resting its lead-off hitter and the catcher is put in the lead-off role. But his OBA is like .300 and he's slow. I think the batting order AI needs a little work as well.
This, too.


The problem is not having guys with too many ratings; the problem is how the AI uses them.
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:44 AM   #36
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Defense! Defense! Defense!

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This has been my experience, also.

This, too.


The problem is not having guys with too many ratings; the problem is how the AI uses them.

I see far too many players getting starts at multiple positions. It's like they don't have a specific position but just play where they are needed because they technically can play everywhere because they are rated high everywhere.

It's rare in my save that you will see a player play out his career at an exclusive position because everyone is an utility player. I think as long as the player's infield and outfield (and catcher) ratings are good enough to play at a specific position than they should be able to convert to a position that those ratings suggest. A Rod played most of his career at SS but he had great infield "rating" to be able to play at 3rd and he gained experienced over time, not to mention in OOTP terms a SS converting to 3rd is easy...Players shouldn't be rated high in experience everywhere especially someone who was just drafted. Being able to train a position in spring training and in the minors is a lost feature because most players are already good/experienced at most positions. Sure we can still train players but it's not necessary as it should be in the game.

Speaking of training, I would love to see a more in depth spring training mode.

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