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Old 12-29-2018, 10:40 AM   #1
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Historical Closers

According to Perfect Team, the two best closers in history pitched in 2018... Blake Treinen and Edwin Diaz. Not even the perfect Dennis Eckersley comes close to the ratings for those two. Can anyone find a historical closer better than the 100 Eck?
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:10 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
According to Perfect Team, the two best closers in history pitched in 2018... Blake Treinen and Edwin Diaz. Not even the perfect Dennis Eckersley comes close to the ratings for those two. Can anyone find a historical closer better than the 100 Eck?
There's two old-timers that are also diamonds: Dead Ball Era pitchers '12 Craig Kimbrel (96) and '17 Craig Kimbrel (90).
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:15 AM   #3
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On a serious note, here's both Kimbrel's ratings. The newer one gives up more HRs, but otherwise they are nearly identical.
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:30 AM   #4
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My 2012 Kimbrel just ended his current save streak at 32. 800PP Silver Achievement. But he will now start another
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:12 PM   #5
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Ok, I stand corrected... the THREE best closers pitched in 2018. Four if you count Doolittle.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:49 PM   #6
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A few others that I found from the 20th century:

Billy Wagner 1999 Record Breaker (94)
Bruce Sutter 1977 Record Breaker (95)
Robb Nen 1998 All-Star (90)
Satchel Paige PEAK All-Time Legend (89)

Those are as good as the Doolittle card but also fall short of Treinen and Diaz. There are several good Rivera cards, but I haven't gotten a good look at them to know if any are as good as the dynamic 2018 duo.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:00 PM   #7
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I like Britton's 2016 card (88).
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:05 PM   #8
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I have seen a 95 rated Eric Gange. I think he is in my league. I'll try to find a picture.

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Old 12-29-2018, 01:25 PM   #9
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Found another. 94 rated Rob Dibble.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:43 PM   #10
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None of these cards are as good as Treinen and Diaz. Still looking for the perfect Honus Wagner of closers. Surely it’s not Blake Treinen.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
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None of these cards are as good as Treinen and Diaz. Still looking for the perfect Honus Wagner of closers. Surely it’s not Blake Treinen.
Keep in mind we're looking at snapshots of individual seasons with these cards (perhaps with the exception of the "Peak" historicals). Treinen and Diaz had historic seasons in 2018. If we're looking at entire careers, then no, they shouldn't be looked on as the best ever. But in terms of individual seasons? It's not that incomprehensible.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
A few others that I found from the 20th century:

Billy Wagner 1999 Record Breaker (94)
Bruce Sutter 1977 Record Breaker (95)
Robb Nen 1998 All-Star (90)
Satchel Paige PEAK All-Time Legend (89)

Those are as good as the Doolittle card but also fall short of Treinen and Diaz. There are several good Rivera cards, but I haven't gotten a good look at them to know if any are as good as the dynamic 2018 duo.
I believe I read there is a Perfect Rivera. I'm still not sure why the other versions look like such mediocre pitchers.

I've snipped together the ratings of all the 76+ rated players being used in the bullpen in my Diamond League.

The Diamond Kimbrels, Diamond Chapman, Bob Feller, Rob Dibble, and Gold Jansen are best Stuff guys. Gold Britton is the only one that beats Treinen on Movement. Eck, Uehara, and Doolittle are the only blue Control pitchers.

Overall, now that I see them all side-by-side, my goal is probably to keep my Treinan-Diaz-Doolittle trio and add Uehara, Robertson, maybe Britton (his Stuff sucks), Chapman, and if I had a million dollars, Perfect Eckersley.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
Keep in mind we're looking at snapshots of individual seasons with these cards (perhaps with the exception of the "Peak" historicals). Treinen and Diaz had historic seasons in 2018. If we're looking at entire careers, then no, they shouldn't be looked on as the best ever. But in terms of individual seasons? It's not that incomprehensible.
In terms of individual seasons, someone like 2013 Koji and 2014 Wade Davis should be at least as high as Treinen and Diaz.
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Old 12-29-2018, 02:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
Keep in mind we're looking at snapshots of individual seasons with these cards (perhaps with the exception of the "Peak" historicals). Treinen and Diaz had historic seasons in 2018. If we're looking at entire careers, then no, they shouldn't be looked on as the best ever. But in terms of individual seasons? It's not that incomprehensible.
Seriously. I think Orcin needs to take another look at both of their seasons last year. Among the all-time great seasons for relievers. Treinan let barely anyone score (0.78 ERA) and Diaz stuck out nearly half the batters he faced while having the 2nd best Save season ever.

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Old 12-29-2018, 02:05 PM   #15
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In terms of individual seasons, someone like 2013 Koji and 2014 Wade Davis should be at least as high as Treinen and Diaz.
2016 Britton, too.
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Old 12-29-2018, 02:25 PM   #16
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https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_RP.shtml
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Old 12-29-2018, 02:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
Keep in mind we're looking at snapshots of individual seasons with these cards (perhaps with the exception of the "Peak" historicals). Treinen and Diaz had historic seasons in 2018. If we're looking at entire careers, then no, they shouldn't be looked on as the best ever. But in terms of individual seasons? It's not that incomprehensible.
You're right. See below.
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Old 12-29-2018, 03:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr View Post
Seriously. I think Orcin needs to take another look at both of their seasons last year. Among the all-time great seasons for relievers. Treinan let barely anyone score (0.78 ERA) and Diaz stuck out nearly half the batters he faced while having the 2nd best Save season ever.
Yes, you are right. I should look at the stats. So I did. The chart below compares Treinen and Diaz to the three best closer seasons for which I could find cards. Clearly, Treinen and Diaz are fairly rated. I apologize for disrespecting them.


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Old 12-29-2018, 03:29 PM   #19
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Doolittle should almost certainly have been rated higher than 89 as well. His season was every much as good as any of the others above, although he only pitched 45 innings. The fact that he's under a 90 keeps his pricetag down enough that he just becomes too common.

There's a 1982 Gossage card that's a 91 overall. And up on the auction block looks like the 2005 Rivera could be in conversation as a top reliever (93 overall, 98/78/66). Also looks like the 2013 Koji up too, 94/65/88 is pretty solid too.

We're always open to suggestions for other closer seasons to look into too.
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Old 12-29-2018, 03:35 PM   #20
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I may be mistaken, but most of the older multi-inning closers still have the same low stamina as the more recent batch. Not sure because I'm not near a computer now. But if their stamina were to be bumped a bit higher to be reflective of their routine 2-3 inning outings, that could go a long way towards bridging the gap in value between closers of the 70s and closers of today.
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