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Old 05-01-2019, 07:41 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by dancariaz View Post
You know what would be great? A separate league tree for f2p players. This game is p2w and even p2w more than any other game I've ever played. Would be nice if all the f2p guys could play against each other without the big spenders. I mean we're all paying for the base game after all, so it's not like we're really f2p and they're not making any money with us.
I guess technically you can do this already, but to make it a completely closed-loop of like-minded f2p players, you're going to need 180 teams (30 Iron, 30 Bronze, 30 Silver, 30 Gold, 30 Diamond, 30 Perfect) and have players on each level have the 29 other teams at their level on their friends list.... and every Sunday night, everyone would need to update their friends lists to add teams moving into their level and remove teams moving out of their level....

takes some work but it can be done
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:44 PM   #42
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I guess technically you can do this already, but to make it a completely closed-loop of like-minded f2p players, you're going to need 180 teams (30 Iron, 30 Bronze, 30 Silver, 30 Gold, 30 Diamond, 30 Perfect) and have players on each level have the 29 other teams at their level on their friends list.... and every Sunday night, everyone would need to update their friends lists to add teams moving into their level and remove teams moving out of their level....

takes some work but it can be done

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Old 05-01-2019, 08:05 PM   #43
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I don't understand why people that are happy with the current system have to be shouted down by the mob. There's no "hot under the collar" here. I just happen to think that the game is fun as it is and doesn't need to be changed. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to say that without being attacked. By the way, I am done here since it is obvious that this thread is only for like-minded people and opposing views are not welcome.
I wasn't suggesting you were or are one of the folks getting hot under the collar. Your posts always seem reasonable. When these topics get heated and they sometimes do as long as people aren't swearing at or threatening others it's all in good discourse...
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:19 PM   #44
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Getting back on topic...

Promotion/relegation is supposed to remove teams from a league level that they no longer belong at, but the method of determining this, seems flawed. A team's record over a single season is not the best indicator of how good they are and how deep they went into the playoffs is even a poorer indicator of how good they are.

Promoting a team based on playoff success is a good idea if there was an actual reward for moving to a higher league. But since there's not a reward for going to a higher league then wouldn't it be better to promote teams only if they're truly outclassing the others at their level?

So for example, let's say you're in a bronze league and your team quality is truly way better than almost all the other teams at the bronze level. Then promoting your team to a higher level makes since, otherwise you'd just be beating up on the bronze teams earning lots of PP very easily.

But if you have a team that wins the bronze championship, but your team quality is not as good as the average silver team quality level (which could be determined by overall ratings, for example - not perfect, but a start), then should you be automatically promoted to silver?

It would be nice if it were possible to have promotion not be automatic if your team quality level isn't higher than the other teams at the level you're currently at, even if you won it all. So only automatically promote teams that are significantly better than the level they're at, based on the quality of the cards they have.

Unfortunately, this would lead to much fewer promotions to higher levels and that might be a bad thing (though I'm not sure how?). So what other problems might such a system have? Also, if a team is so good that their quality level compares to diamond teams and they just left the entry pool, should they just start at the diamond level? What problems would this create?
Bingo. My very early issue was that promotions were based on playoff wins. We all repeat over and over that anything can happen in a short series - yet we rely on the results of a short series to group competitive teams..... seems wrong, no?
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:26 PM   #45
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There will never be separate tiers for f2p and p2w since it massively discourages small purchases which is very bad for the developers. That should be obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like scrapping promotion/relegation and assigning teams a level each week based on their total PP value. No more reason to game the system building up points at iron/bronze or throwing the playoffs to avoid promotion. And it gives people the "rebuild" option without intentional tanking season after season they've wanted, it will just come at the cost of your current points. Have some sort of achievements based on the tier you play in.

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Old 05-01-2019, 08:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
There will never be separate tiers for f2p and p2w since it massively discourages small purchases which is very bad for the developers. That should be obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like scrapping promotion/relegation and assigning teams a level each week based on their total PP value. No more reason to game the system building up points at iron/bronze or throwing the playoffs to avoid promotion. And it gives people the "rebuild" option without intentional tanking season after season they've wanted, it will just come at the cost of your current points. Have some sort of achievements based on the tier you play in.
Another good idea.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
There will never be separate tiers for f2p and p2w since it massively discourages small purchases which is very bad for the developers. That should be obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like scrapping promotion/relegation and assigning teams a level each week based on their total PP value. No more reason to game the system building up points at iron/bronze or throwing the playoffs to avoid promotion. And it gives people the "rebuild" option without intentional tanking season after season they've wanted, it will just come at the cost of your current points. Have some sort of achievements based on the tier you play in.

I think card values determine overall quality better than PP values. For example, if someone has a perfect Walter Johnson, then their total PP value is very high, but their team isn't necessarily that good (just ask Westheim).
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:06 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dkgo View Post
There will never be separate tiers for f2p and p2w since it massively discourages small purchases which is very bad for the developers. That should be obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like scrapping promotion/relegation and assigning teams a level each week based on their total PP value. No more reason to game the system building up points at iron/bronze or throwing the playoffs to avoid promotion. And it gives people the "rebuild" option without intentional tanking season after season they've wanted, it will just come at the cost of your current points. Have some sort of achievements based on the tier you play in.

one downside I would see with that would be with theme teams... I'll use my own as an example... got a pre-ww2 team that's restricted to 1945 cards and earlier... but due to impending collections missions and tourneys (available players for tourneys won't be limited to the theme), I keep all other cards I get from packs on my reserve roster... so I have a gold and a bunch of silver modern players just sitting there (some are better than what I have on the active roster); not to mention all the bronze and iron cards... if they get counted in my total PP, my team might seem a lot more powerful than it really is (but if you don't count the reserves/inactive cards, then someone could just hide cards there to artificially decrease their total points).


if we're tossing out ideas to help balance out levels and keep teams from getting stranded at a level too hard for them but not so hard they don't end up in the bottom 4; as well as prevent powerhouse teams from not moving up due to a playoff collapse... perhaps a simple solution is to just have all 10 playoff teams get promoted and 10 teams get relegated... that would keep a healthy sweep of teams moving up/down each season
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Old 05-01-2019, 09:40 PM   #49
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As an aside, I would like to point out that arguing that the current system requires no change is very different from telling people they need to shut up and color.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:07 PM   #50
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I think card values determine overall quality better than PP values. For example, if someone has a perfect Walter Johnson, then their total PP value is very high, but their team isn't necessarily that good (just ask Westheim).
maybe, although there certainly is a big difference between having perfect walter johnson and perfect max scherzer. maybe it means the johnson owner should sell and use the points better.

I cant say for sure the absolute best way to do it but I think something along those lines would be better than the way it is now.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:45 AM   #51
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I definitely do not want to give players the option to stay where they are. If you are one of the better teams in the league you get promoted and move up. You don't get a chance to decline just so you can mop the floor with the other teams in your league. How is that fair to them? I really hate this idea. And I am in this position right now. I have a FTP team that is in Perfect and looks to stay there by winning about .300. And I'm fine with keeping the current system.

The only thing that might need a tweak is the number of teams relegated each week so that a team that is really struggling doesn't 'just miss' being relegated week after week. Make the leagues have more turnover and that should solve it, I think.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:53 AM   #52
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I definitely do not want to give players the option to stay where they are. If you are one of the better teams in the league you get promoted and move up. You don't get a chance to decline just so you can mop the floor with the other teams in your league. How is that fair to them? I really hate this idea. And I am in this position right now. I have a FTP team that is in Perfect and looks to stay there by winning about .300. And I'm fine with keeping the current system.

The only thing that might need a tweak is the number of teams relegated each week so that a team that is really struggling doesn't 'just miss' being relegated week after week. Make the leagues have more turnover and that should solve it, I think.

I think you completely missed the point. No one that I know of is suggesting it would be a good idea to keep a team that is significantly better than the others at the same league level.

Instead, some of us are saying that just winning the championship is NOT an indicator of superiority and shouldn't be used as a criteria for advancement. Furthermore, W-L record isn't necessarily the best indicator as well. For example, winning 100 games in one season doesn't mean your team is that much better than the others since you can get lucky (for example, imagine a pyt +9) in a single season.

So we're just looking for other better measures to determine what level a team belongs at.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:07 PM   #53
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I think you completely missed the point. No one that I know of is suggesting it would be a good idea to keep a team that is significantly better than the others at the same league level.

Instead, some of us are saying that just winning the championship is NOT an indicator of superiority and shouldn't be used as a criteria for advancement. Furthermore, W-L record isn't necessarily the best indicator as well. For example, winning 100 games in one season doesn't mean your team is that much better than the others since you can get lucky (for example, imagine a pyt +9) in a single season.

So we're just looking for other better measures to determine what level a team belongs at.

I thought the OP was all about the option of being able to stay where they wanted?
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:11 PM   #54
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Instead, some of us are saying that just winning the championship is NOT an indicator of superiority and shouldn't be used as a criteria for advancement. Furthermore, W-L record isn't necessarily the best indicator as well. For example, winning 100 games in one season doesn't mean your team is that much better than the others since you can get lucky (for example, imagine a pyt +9) in a single season.

So we're just looking for other better measures to determine what level a team belongs at.

I can't imagine two better indicators of superiority than championships and winning percentage. I am anxious to see what other measures you develop.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:11 PM   #55
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I thought the OP was all about the option of being able to stay where they wanted?

The thread moved on since then so I actually forgot about what the OP even said.

Those of us who've been posting more recently are not saying that at all and so we're in agreement here. But the current way of determining what level a team belongs at is what we'd like changed.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:25 PM   #56
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I can't imagine two better indicators of superiority than championships and winning percentage. I am anxious to see what other measures you develop.

You obviously know that a team can win a championship even though they had a .500 record. Are they superior to the competition then and should not be at that level anymore? Surely not! Same thing goes for WPct for a single season as I already indicated since luck can play a big part there too.

Let's say a team is in a bronze league and has mostly high end diamonds and perfects. Even though they may not win the championship and even though they may be unlucky and not win as many as expected, they'll still almost certainly outclass the rest of the league and win a lot more than most others. In other words, the quality of the cards on the active roster can be ONE criteria used to tell if a team belongs at another level or not. But maybe it shouldn't be the only criteria used.

The point of promotion/relegation is to move teams that don't belong at a certain level (because they're much better or much worse) to a different level where they'll be more equal to the other teams. Looking at something like the quality of the cards can determine this difference better than championships and record for a single season. Of course, if a team can consistently win a lot at a given level, then that might need to be factored in even if the quality of their cards doesn't seem to warrant their advancement.

Perhaps devising an algorithm that can judge team quality would be too difficult, I don't know, but I'm hoping that something like this can help make better (if not perfect) decisions about what level a team belongs at.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:27 PM   #57
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I think what we're down to is "How to better group teams so there isn't as much of a talent spread once you get to Perfect" (and maybe Diamond). I would think the talent in Perfect should be close enough that spreads of more than 15 games would be VERY rare.

I think measuring teams based on an entire season (win/loss percentage) is far superior to playoff winners (which includes wild cards and 2 a 20 games run at best).

Maybe (and I'm just throwing out ideas here) once the teams with the best winning percentages are moved up a level (how ever many that is), an equal number of teams with the lowest winning percentage at each level are relegated.

That would both increase movement between levels AND assemble these groups into a tighter talent circle.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:33 PM   #58
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To add a little more...

W-L record for one season as a criteria is problematic, but so is using just card quality since some combinations of cards, no matter how good they are individually, may not make for as good a team. For example, having an extreme groundball pitcher on a team with subpar defense is not such a good idea, even if the pitcher has great ratings.

So clearly card quality isn't enough either. But it does tend to have some predictive value, especially when the gap in quality is significant enough. Maybe if this can be combined with W-L record over more than one season it would be more useful. I don't know though. It's easier to see what's wrong with something than it is to figure out something better.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:36 PM   #59
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I think what we're down to is "How to better group teams so there isn't as much of a talent spread once you get to Perfect" (and maybe Diamond). I would think the talent in Perfect should be close enough that spreads of more than 15 games would be VERY rare.

I think measuring teams based on an entire season (win/loss percentage) is far superior to playoff winners (which includes wild cards and 2 a 20 games run at best).

Maybe (and I'm just throwing out ideas here) once the teams with the best winning percentages are moved up a level (how ever many that is), an equal number of teams with the lowest winning percentage at each level are relegated.

That would both increase movement between levels AND assemble these groups into a tighter talent circle.

Others have been suggesting this increase in movement between levels as well and it does sound better than the current system so maybe it would be a better alternative since it's simpler? Using card ratings to help figure out where a team belongs might introduce all sorts of extra complications.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:53 PM   #60
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There will never be separate tiers for f2p and p2w since it massively discourages small purchases which is very bad for the developers. That should be obvious.

The more I think about it the more I like scrapping promotion/relegation and assigning teams a level each week based on their total PP value. No more reason to game the system building up points at iron/bronze or throwing the playoffs to avoid promotion. And it gives people the "rebuild" option without intentional tanking season after season they've wanted, it will just come at the cost of your current points. Have some sort of achievements based on the tier you play in.

I love this idea. I do like the idea of being promoted based on winning playoffs and seasonal record, but for relegation and assigning all the other teams, this would work great.
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