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Old 05-04-2019, 10:06 AM   #141
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Wait... this is somehow different than dropping money on pieces of cardboard with pictures and stats on them?
In her mind, yea since I can resell them but point well taken!
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:08 AM   #142
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Yeah, the difference is about $50 in some cases lol. Even more in others.
My 1953 Mantle was $750 and 1934 Goudy Premium Ruth card was $500. Those were graded 1 on a 1-10 scale.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:32 AM   #143
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My 1953 Mantle was $750 and 1934 Goudy Premium Ruth card was $500. Those were graded 1 on a 1-10 scale.
That's why I'm only in low cost card collecting - players that meant something to me as a kid. I do, however, have a complete 3000+ card collection of the various publishers that produced the photos by Charles Conlon (1904-1942).
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Old 05-04-2019, 03:24 PM   #144
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With as long as this thread has become, I thought I would summarize my thoughts/plans here to be as transparent as possible. If there is something here defined as "illegal" by the developers, I would hope they would state so in advance.

1) I do not believe what I am hoping to do is "tanking". I see it as "rebuilding". Rebuilding is done at practically all levels below Perfect on a daily basis. Players are bought and sold because they improve the team or because an owner doesn't like the performance he is getting out of the player and chooses to try someone else. Selling off players to match a theme is obviously allowed, and I don't see selling off players to match a different direction as anything different.

2) It's obvious (and proven) that a quick trip to Perfect can find yourself not strong enough to compete, and limited to fixing that problem to spending more money. Once you find yourself in that scenario, your enjoyment of the game (and your previous investment) is also limited to watching time progress with no further goals. It will ultimately result in less frequent check-ins to check your team - and possible abandonment.

3) Im well aware that tournaments are likely designed to help resolve this issue - and if tournaments were available and did, in fact, lessen the effects of getting "stuck" with no options, maybe this issue wouldn't exist at all - but it looks like they will not be available for a while (and I don't blame OOTP for that... I realize it's a complex task) and in the meantime there is no option.

4) So, what do I "think" would be ok to do and why?

I plan to Sell Off off 4-7 players. Not "deactivate" them, but sell them off to regain the perfect points I spent in the first place to obtain them. In that way, I can redirect my investment to a different set of players that might provide me with more success. The players I've chosen are ones that can be replaced with players on the Reserve List. How, and how quickly I reinvest those points will depend on who becomes available and when. I certainly won't be the only team that has a large amount of PPs in the bank.

I will do this on Sunday (between seasons) so that my timing does not effect one team over another based on my new schedule for next week.

Let me make clear;

"Tanking" is (should be seen as) when a team "deactivates" high rated players to hide them or moves them to his Reserve list to lessen his teams chances to compete.

"Rebuilding" is (should be seen as) when a team "sells" his high rated players to provide the funds to take the team in another direction. In addition, "rebuilding" should ALWAYS be a valid option at any level.

It should be that simple, and what I am proposing does exactly that.

If the developers disagree with me, I suppose I may get banned, although that would be a great disappointment. I truly believe that engaging more customers to stay involved and be tempted to spend money is the best business model for OOTP. Customers abandoning teams doesn't accomplish that.
Rebuilding is a form of tanking. Tanking violates the TOS as it is currently written. Without further clarification, this is incredibly problematic.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:23 PM   #145
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If developers do not want us to sell our cards, there would be no auction house. Selling cards for PP to spend is essentially trading. Selling players for real world cash would be a major violation. I see no problem with leveraging your assets to improve your team and/or your enjoyment however you see fit.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:50 PM   #146
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Rebuilding is a form of tanking. Tanking violates the TOS as it is currently written. Without further clarification, this is incredibly problematic.
We're going to have to disagree then. If you can't rebuild within a reasonable set of rules, there isn't much of a game here. If your right, I will be banned if I try it. And it will be the biggest disappointment in this game in 17 years.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:59 PM   #147
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Rebuilding is a form of tanking. Tanking violates the TOS as it is currently written. Without further clarification, this is incredibly problematic.
how can someone not be allowed to use the auction house to sell cards in order to buy new ones? that's a fundamental aspect of the game

the rules are written broadly so that the developers pretty much have discretion to do whatever they want, but the spirit is to protect against someone that is making a mockery of the game by intentionally playing all of their players out of position or similar.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:16 PM   #148
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I never said I liked it. I never said I agreed with it. I never said it is the way things ought to be.

However, selling your best cards decreases your chances to win. Actions that result in winning fewer games is in violation of the TOS as they are currently written.

This is a problem.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:30 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Dogberry99 View Post
I never said I liked it. I never said I agreed with it. I never said it is the way things ought to be.

However, selling your best cards decreases your chances to win. Actions that result in winning fewer games is in violation of the TOS as they are currently written.

This is a problem.
Your ignoring the fact that selling cards provides points to be spent again and put back into the game economy. Accumulating those points by selling players or never spending them in the first place is the same thing.

Worst case scenario; (and I'm not suggesting this is what I'm doing)...

Player sells off half of his best cards - let's say 10 cards and manages to earn back 150,000 PPs to reinvest in new players. His team no longer plays as well and gets relegated to a lower level. A NEW team is promoted to take his place and is now the stronger team.

Who has been hurt?

If your not going to allow some flexibility in changing your teams, then this isn't a game as much as it is you keep rolling the die until you roll a 12. It's not baseball management, it's feed the well until it pays off.

I agree there's a thin line between doing such things right and taking advantage of others, but that's why the Devs are there. If I'm totally wrong here using the AH to gain back a point balance, then I guess I'll get banned - and if that's truly the way it's suppose to be, then I'd rather play Classic OOTP anyway.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:38 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by HRBaker View Post
If your not going to allow some flexibility in changing your teams, then this isn't a game as much as it is you keep rolling the die until you roll a 12. It's not baseball management, it's feed the well until it pays off.

I agree there's a thin line between doing such things right and taking advantage of others, but that's why the Devs are there. If I'm totally wrong here using the AH to gain back a point balance, then I guess I'll get banned - and if that's truly the way it's suppose to be, then I'd rather play Classic OOTP anyway.
My argument for some time now has been that the community does not allow sufficient flexibility. I've been blacklisted by some simply for playing a card in a position that starts with max experience (Ed Delahanty, 8 rating in CF in 19 [LATE EDIT" Just double checked, its actually 6, my apologies]). This has been called cheating, in part because I claimed that I was doing this in an attempt to increase the odds of relegation from Perfect. I felt I needed to increase these odds because 95 loss seasons were consistently not enough.

I was called a cheater for playing a card at a position that required no training.

I may not think you're doing anything wrong, but others unquestionably will. We need the devs to set our boundaries because, left to our own devices, we can and do eat our own.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:42 PM   #151
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My argument for some time now has been that the community does not allow sufficient flexibility. I've been blacklisted by some simply for playing a card in a position that starts with max experience (Ed Delahanty, 8 rating in CF in 19). This has been called cheating, in part because I claimed that I was doing this in an attempt to increase the odds of relegation from Perfect. I felt I needed to increase these odds because 95 loss seasons were consistently not enough.

Independent of my claims, I was called a cheater for playing a card at a position that required no training.

We need the devs to set our boundaries because, left to our own devices, we can and do eat our own. I may not think you're doing anything wrong, but others unquestionably will.
I understand - I actually do. And I agree there has to be flexibility in play if we're suppose to actually enjoy the game - WITHOUT worrying about every little detail that MIGHT give someone 100 points they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. We're splitting hairs and setting the unwritten rules to simply not allow anything to make sure we're safe.

I feel I'm not doing anything wrong - I guess we'll find out.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:46 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by HRBaker View Post
Your ignoring the fact that selling cards provides points to be spent again and put back into the game economy. Accumulating those points by selling players or never spending them in the first place is the same thing.

Worst case scenario; (and I'm not suggesting this is what I'm doing)...

Player sells off half of his best cards - let's say 10 cards and manages to earn back 150,000 PPs to reinvest in new players. His team no longer plays as well and gets relegated to a lower level. A NEW team is promoted to take his place and is now the stronger team.

Who has been hurt?

If your not going to allow some flexibility in changing your teams, then this isn't a game as much as it is you keep rolling the die until you roll a 12. It's not baseball management, it's feed the well until it pays off.

I agree there's a thin line between doing such things right and taking advantage of others, but that's why the Devs are there. If I'm totally wrong here using the AH to gain back a point balance, then I guess I'll get banned - and if that's truly the way it's suppose to be, then I'd rather play Classic OOTP anyway.

Look, people like to take things to the extreme sometimes and hyperbole takes over. If you want to remake your team you can. If I understand things correctly, being in Perfect League and deactivating your Perfects and Diamonds and not selling them but playing Iron cards is going to get you the boot. Some folks like things spelled out for them but to me it isn't that complicated. Putting all Irons in and clearly trying to lose is a violation.

But someone may say, what if I do it subtle? Trying to lose as many games as I can? Well that's probably fine but never ask me to game with you. Integrity means something to some of us and no, I'm not indicating anyone here doesn't have integrity. We do know the planet does contain such folk.

Anyway that's just me. I don't think the TOS is super restrictive, it's obvious overt stuff that gets you in trouble.
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Old 05-04-2019, 06:26 PM   #153
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We're going to have to disagree then. If you can't rebuild within a reasonable set of rules, there isn't much of a game here. If your right, I will be banned if I try it. And it will be the biggest disappointment in this game in 17 years.
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Old 05-04-2019, 06:29 PM   #154
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I was called a cheater for playing a card at a position that required no training.
What does this mean, what was the scenario?
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Old 05-04-2019, 06:35 PM   #155
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What does this mean, what was the scenario?
The fact that context is necessary to determine if my actions were appropriate prove my point about playing a card with an inherent positional rating.

However, to answer your question, I moved Delahanty to CF, with either Paul Blair or Garry Maddox as DH (I forget which without going back to old, dead threads in the 19 forum. I think one of them still needed some training in other OF positions at that time, which influenced my choice DH. Not that that really made a significant difference here...). The other played a corner OF spot with Berkman manning the other.
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Old 05-04-2019, 06:43 PM   #156
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The fact that context is necessary to determine if my actions were appropriate prove my point about playing a card with an inherent positional rating.

However, to answer your question, I moved Delahanty to CF, with either Paul Blair or Garry Maddox as DH (I forget which without going back to old, dead threads in the 19 forum. I think one of them still needed some training in other OF positions at that time, which influenced my choice DH. Not that that really made a significant difference here...). The other played a corner OF spot with Berkman manning the other.
Mine was not a question of context, so I don't know how anything I said proves a point. The post made no sense to me as first written. I wanted to know the scenario as a description of what happened, not to put it into context or anything of the sort.
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Old 05-04-2019, 06:45 PM   #157
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I never said I liked it. I never said I agreed with it. I never said it is the way things ought to be.

However, selling your best cards decreases your chances to win. Actions that result in winning fewer games is in violation of the TOS as they are currently written.

This is a problem.
That interpretation is absurd.

By that logic not buying points is against the TOS.

You seem to keep referring to some incident that you were in being called a cheater, but were you called out by developers or just random clowns on here? If it's not a developer's opinion and no action was taken against you then it means nothing.

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Old 05-04-2019, 06:48 PM   #158
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The fact that context is necessary to determine if my actions were appropriate prove my point about playing a card with an inherent positional rating.

However, to answer your question, I moved Delahanty to CF, with either Paul Blair or Garry Maddox as DH (I forget which without going back to old, dead threads in the 19 forum. I think one of them still needed some training in other OF positions at that time, which influenced my choice DH. Not that that really made a significant difference here...). The other played a corner OF spot with Berkman manning the other.

I think the main problem is you flat out stated you were trying to lose games. You literally said "I'm trying to lose games" which is why I overreacted.
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:22 AM   #159
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I can't imagine two better indicators of superiority than championships and winning percentage. I am anxious to see what other measures you develop.

I can. It's called RPI, developed by mathematicians and has stood the test of time, proving more accurate at predicting future performance than straight winning percentage. There are other similar methods, which also take into account strength of schedule, that are also better indicators of superiority.
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:24 AM   #160
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Perhaps devising an algorithm that can judge team quality would be too difficult, I don't know, but I'm hoping that something like this can help make better (if not perfect) decisions about what level a team belongs at.
It isn't too difficult. It's been done. It's called RPI and there are other similar algorithms.
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