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Old 07-31-2013, 09:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
The thing that kills stats only for me is that it is not realistic.

In real life, GMs have stats and scouts. Sometimes, they say opposite things. Part of the skill is sorting that contrary information and weighing which one is right.

Eliminating one source of information is like playing a PGA event without walking the course or knowing the pin placements. No one would do it.
Excuse me, I use both stats and scouts.

Excuse me, knowing a player's precise potential ratings is somehow more realistic? No way.

To SO players, SO is far more realistic than vanilla OOTP. You have to look at the scouting report - not precise potential values that no GM could ever know - and look at the player's stats and make decisions. There is no magic numbers to help you.

To SO players, SO is both harder and more realistic. Which is why some of us like it so much.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by cody8200 View Post
The only thing that kills it for me is that you can't tell when a player loses his ability suddenly before making a big signing in the offseason. Or after an injury. If there was some text dialog to help the stats only GM understand when a player is in for a decline, I would be on board. In real life you could just see the decline coming based on his pitch speed going down or looking bad at batting practice. Not the case in OOTP.
I reject your premise. The existence of many, many declines after signing contracts shows that decline frequently is not seen coming in real world baseball.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Excuse me, I use both stats and scouts.

Excuse me, knowing a player's precise potential ratings is somehow more realistic? No way.

SO is far more realistic than vanilla OOTP. You have to look at the scouting report - not precise potential values that no GM could ever know - and look at the player's stats and make decisions. There is no magic numbers to help you.
In real life, scouts rate players on a numerical scale. It's not OOTP's 1-20 scale, but you can, of course, use 2-8 or 20-80 to be more realistic. The written scouting report in OOTP is simply a direct reflection of the numerical ratings anyway.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:23 AM   #24
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I would probably go back to ratings if they worked like how we think of things in real life, but I think they're still too accurate. And also oddly not accurate enough. It's hard to describe, but they just feel too all-encompassing, and when you see the ratings, it makes it way too easy to ignore the stats.

Going with a combination of the written scouting report and the stats I find is a great mix that gives me just enough info to judge players, but not too much that I feel like I know exactly how they will do.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by UWHabs View Post
Going with a combination of the written scouting report and the stats I find is a great mix that gives me just enough info to judge players, but not too much that I feel like I know exactly how they will do.
This. Exactly.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Excuse me, I use both stats and scouts.

Well then, you are not playing STATS ONLY.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWHabs View Post
Going with a combination of the written scouting report and the stats I find is a great mix that gives me just enough info to judge players, but not too much that I feel like I know exactly how they will do.
To each their own, but I find the opposite -- I feel like the scouting report provides an unrealistic hodge-podge of contradictory information that an actual scout would never provide. The ratings are more coherent, and can be as foggy or as specific as you want.

The scouting reports kill immersion for me in the same way that it seems like the ratings do for you.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:21 AM   #28
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Interesting topic. I tried SO once and didn't find it my cup of tea.

As a dodger fan, I can think of a real-life example of how scouting ratings work pretty realistic in the OOTP world. Darren Dreifort is a classic example of a player who scouts would have rated 80 out of 80 or close to. (I don't play historical but would be interested to know what kind of ratings Dreifort gets in the game). Tony Gwynn once said he had the best stuff in the Major Leagues.

Injuries played a large part, but the fact is Dreifort never could put it all together on the ML level. He had his moments, but he failed as a starter and then wasn't much better as a reliever. Had expectations been lower, I'm sure many major leaguers would have been happy with his career, but because he was "rated so highly" he's looked at as a letdown.

So, when that guy with ratings through the roof never quite puts it together (Dreifort was drafted early in the 1st round btw) just think of Dreifort and others like him and realize gaudy scouting ratings aren't the be-all-end-all to player evaluation.

Every scout in the world can say the same thing about a guy and still be wrong. I think OOTP's scouting system does a good job of mimicking this in the game, and I find it more interesting and immersive when there are certain guys who just never quite live up to those ratings..
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:51 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody8200 View Post
The only thing that kills it for me is that you can't tell when a player loses his ability suddenly before making a big signing in the offseason. Or after an injury. If there was some text dialog to help the stats only GM understand when a player is in for a decline, I would be on board. In real life you could just see the decline coming based on his pitch speed going down or looking bad at batting practice. Not the case in OOTP.
Yeah but this isn't the case IRL. Teams don't typically know a player has "fallen off" until they watch him play.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Well then, you are not playing STATS ONLY.
When we in the forums refer to Stats-Only, we mean the non-use of ratings.

I'll throw my two cents in...S/O is the best way to play. I feel like I'm playing Madden when using ratings, you just go by what a player is rated. Plus, it's a total buzzkill if a player drops off in rating. For example, Jason Bay (my favorite reference). IRL he started the season in the starting lineup...then we saw his stats were awful. Why would you want to see the ratings drop before the season started? So you could trade him or make other arrangements, right? This isn't how it works in real life. Thus, S/O is the way to go.

I hope my mini-rant made sense by the way...
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:58 AM   #31
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To The Wolf: How I learned to stop worrying and love stats only

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Excuse me, I use both stats and scouts.

Excuse me, knowing a player's precise potential ratings is somehow more realistic? No way.

SO is far more realistic than vanilla OOTP. You have to look at the scouting report - not precise potential values that no GM could ever know - and look at the player's stats and make decisions. There is no magic numbers to help you.

SO is both harder and more realistic. Which is why some of us like it so much.
I wouldn't say its precise if you are not using 100% accurate scouting.

I use like a hybrid of "stats only"

My AI Eval settings are favored to stats but I have some weight to ratings and use them but my scout accuracy is set to very low.

Even if scouts are set to 100% accurate, I don't feel like it gives things away or lose realism because a player can have a bad year even with great ratings. Also depending where you have your injury setting at this could also effect stat output. Oh and not to mention fatigue if its set higher.

Its all player preference though. I personally would NEVER play with pure ratings or any setting that favors ratings lol.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soxfan34 View Post
Yeah but this isn't the case IRL. Teams don't typically know a player has "fallen off" until they watch him play.

Pitch speed does decrease in OOTP and usually does correspond to decrease in the stuff rating. But, I certainly get where you're coming from. For the most part it is difficult to see when those hits happen. I'm guessing that's part of the fun for a lot of those who enjoy that mode.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Well then, you are not playing STATS ONLY.
Yes, I am. Stats only means no ratings, not no scouting reports.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soxfan34 View Post
When we in the forums refer to Stats-Only, we mean the non-use of ratings.

I'll throw my two cents in...S/O is the best way to play. I feel like I'm playing Madden when using ratings, you just go by what a player is rated. Plus, it's a total buzzkill if a player drops off in rating. For example, Jason Bay (my favorite reference). IRL he started the season in the starting lineup...then we saw his stats were awful. Why would you want to see the ratings drop before the season started? So you could trade him or make other arrangements, right? This isn't how it works in real life. Thus, S/O is the way to go.

I hope my mini-rant made sense by the way...
It made perfect sense.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:04 PM   #35
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Stats only isn't for everyone. Vanilla isn't for everyone. Play the game however you enjoy it most. But let's not fight about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soxfan34 View Post
For example, Jason Bay (my favorite reference). IRL he started the season in the starting lineup...then we saw his stats were awful. Why would you want to see the ratings drop before the season started? So you could trade him or make other arrangements, right? This isn't how it works in real life. Thus, S/O is the way to go.
I've witnessed plenty of players in OOTP fall off the table before there was a corresponding ratings change.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:28 PM   #37
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Stats Only saved the game for me. The ratings made the game way too easy and I had zero immersion. Whoever said it felt like Madden is dead-on. Personally, I use the reports still but I turn Scouting Accuracy to "low" so I'm made to trust them even less.

That's just me, though. I'm more likely to abandon a game I'm dominating than one which is dominating me. And when I do well with stats only--it is far more gratifying. I feel like a genuine baseball genius.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:35 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Stats only isn't for everyone. Vanilla isn't for everyone. Play the game however you enjoy it most. But let's not fight about it.
Seriously guys, listen to Wolf right now. We have SO MANY arguments over what way is the best to play. And there IS not best way to play. There IS no "most realistic way". They are all different to each person. I may find S/O unrealistic and you may. It doesn't matter. That's the beauty of OOTP. We play it our own way.

Just drop it and let's talk about stuff that actually matters rather than arguing.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:37 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Yes, I am. Stats only means no ratings, not no scouting reports.

Verbal scouting reports say things like "elite offensive player, you can expect .300/.400/.600 in a given season". That's pretty easy to translate to ratings.

To me, stats only means only using stats.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:02 PM   #40
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I currently have 2-8 ratings turned on for fielding, peripherals, and... potential ratings. I like having the potential ratings in there as a crutch. My excuse is that I tend to play "god mode", which essentially means GMing all 16 teams in a league, and I generally don't want to drill down to each and every single player in every minor league system to see who I am missing. I do give names to all picks in the top 2 rounds of the draft, which helps that, and in practice I do generally end up looking at everybody's player card who is in the majors at some time or another.

I do find that I prefer looking at scouting ratings rather than the 2-8 potential numbers. I have those set to either "Low" or "Very Low" in terms of accuracy so it's entirely possible that the scout I'm looking at these through simply thinks a guy is not as good as he really is. To make matters worse, I'm operating in the dead ball era, where the AI really does not do a great job of rating players on a gestalt level, especially WRT fielding (I've seen players rated 6 on the 2-8 scale have woefully terrible error rates and 4-rated shortstops with positive ZRs).

I might eliminate potential ratings here as well so that I have to look at scouting reports. I do think that I probably judge guys with 3/8 contact potentials as not prospecty enough to give a shot to, and not even being able to look at this on the main page might help me to stop.

The one thing I think SO misses out on are pitches. We need *something* there for them, some sort of Fangraphs-style stat like frequency of use. Ideally something like strike and swing percentages would be cool as well.
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