Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP Update 20.6 - OOTP 20 Available - FHM 5 Available

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Out of the Park Baseball 14 > OOTP 14 - General Discussions

OOTP 14 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2013 version of Out of the Park Baseball here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-31-2013, 01:09 PM   #41
Fyrestorm3
Hall Of Famer
 
Fyrestorm3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,913
Thanks: 2,212
Thanked 2,929x in 1,342 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Verbal scouting reports say things like "elite offensive player, you can expect .300/.400/.600 in a given season". That's pretty easy to translate to ratings.

To me, stats only means only using stats.
Does it particularly matter? Wolf uses Scouting Reports, I use Speed and Fielding Ratings, Syd uses Potential Ratings... I feel like the core idea of Stats-Only is turning off the main POW/CON/EYE ratings. Anything beyond that is up to the individual.
Fyrestorm3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 01:09 PM   #42
Matt Arnold
OOTP Developer
 
Matt Arnold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Here and there
Posts: 8,599
Thanks: 979
Thanked 10,606x in 4,178 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Verbal scouting reports say things like "elite offensive player, you can expect .300/.400/.600 in a given season". That's pretty easy to translate to ratings.

To me, stats only means only using stats.
There's many levels of "stats-only". I find using scouting reports a good way to balance. Yes, it will tell me some things about potential I wouldn't get from stats, but I do find that the written reports are vague enough that it's not "cheating".
Matt Arnold is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 01:11 PM   #43
The Wolf
Hall Of Famer
 
The Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
Posts: 12,612
Thanks: 1,790
Thanked 5,050x in 2,605 posts
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Verbal scouting reports say things like "elite offensive player, you can expect .300/.400/.600 in a given season". That's pretty easy to translate to ratings.

To me, stats only means only using stats.
Set your accuracy to low, and then try relying on them.

You missed my point about not fighting over this, didn't you?
__________________
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
The Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Scoman (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 01:16 PM   #44
The Wolf
Hall Of Famer
 
The Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
Posts: 12,612
Thanks: 1,790
Thanked 5,050x in 2,605 posts
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Stats Only means no ratings. That's all it means, and there's a lot of different ways to play with no ratings.
__________________
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
The Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
2 thanks for this post:
Lukas Berger (08-01-2013), Scoman (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 01:19 PM   #45
Déjà Bru
Hall Of Famer
 
Déjà Bru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,991
Blog Entries: 4
Thanks: 1,464
Thanked 3,764x in 2,136 posts
This is a good thread, which I am reading with interest. It's nice to see Wolfie getting some positive recognition here. This has been his baby for sure.
__________________

- Bru


Déjà Bru is offline   Reply With Quote
3 thanks for this post:
Fyrestorm3 (07-31-2013), Lukas Berger (08-01-2013), SirMichaelJordan (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 01:22 PM   #46
SirMichaelJordan
All Star Starter
 
SirMichaelJordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,859
Thanks: 1,879
Thanked 892x in 539 posts
To The Wolf: How I learned to stop worrying and love stats only

I think what Orcin is saying is that looking at the ratings and scouting reports are basically the same thing If you know the game well enough. You can pretty much know what a specific sentence means and can translate it to a number. Of course things get more accurate with ratings as you up the scale but if someone is using a 1-5 scale or 2-8 scale then its pretty much the same as reading scouts if you know how they translate.

But at the end of the day IMO its all about what immerse the player not about is a setting realistic or not.

Last edited by SirMichaelJordan; 07-31-2013 at 01:30 PM.
SirMichaelJordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Orcin (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 01:22 PM   #47
Cinnamon J. Scudworth
All Star Starter
 
Cinnamon J. Scudworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,117
Thanks: 137
Thanked 563x in 327 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3 View Post
Does it particularly matter? Wolf uses Scouting Reports, I use Speed and Fielding Ratings, Syd uses Potential Ratings... I feel like the core idea of Stats-Only is turning off the main POW/CON/EYE ratings. Anything beyond that is up to the individual.
The point is that when your scout says something like "this guy looks like a .330 hitter" you know it's because the player has a very high CON rating. The statements map directly to ratings. That's why you get the (IMHO) immersion-killing effect of a statement like that combined with an overall assessement that the player has no future, because of a poor EYE rating or something. So there's really no practical difference between reading the scouting reports and using some lower-granularity rating setting.
__________________
"Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket."

-Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason

Last edited by Cinnamon J. Scudworth; 07-31-2013 at 01:28 PM.
Cinnamon J. Scudworth is offline   Reply With Quote
2 thanks for this post:
mpejkrm (07-31-2013), Orcin (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 01:39 PM   #48
ukhotstove
Hall Of Famer
 
ukhotstove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: North of England Gods Country
Posts: 6,620
Thanks: 487
Thanked 492x in 345 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Stats only isn't for everyone. Vanilla isn't for everyone. Play the game however you enjoy it most. But let's not fight about it.
Wolfs right. Lets not fight about it, discuss not fight. It's like having a fight over which is your favourite colour, there are probably 1,000's of ways to play OOTP so you'll never get everyone to agree. I've actually gone through different phases, firstly with real rosters then historical followed by fictional and now I'm into fictional stats only. My final aim is to have a totally deep fictional world, names, cities all fictional playing stats only where I can be God, King, GM and manager even player.
__________________
Wigan Athletic
2013 FA Cup Winners.
2014 FA Cup Semi Finalists.
ukhotstove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 01:45 PM   #49
Déjà Bru
Hall Of Famer
 
Déjà Bru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,991
Blog Entries: 4
Thanks: 1,464
Thanked 3,764x in 2,136 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonin View Post
One thing I wish the game would do for those who want to play stats-only is put something in the player profile where ratings would be. I don't have OOTP14, but for previous versions, having all that empty space where ratings would be looks very strange.

Playing with stats only makes sense, and I could grow to love playing that way, if only the player profile didn't look so strange.

Just my 2 cents.
Heh. This post points to how alike we all are, despite our differences. This bugs me too, my friend! Why I don't know but it's akin to the need to occasionally sort my sock drawer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cody8200 View Post
The only thing that kills it for me is that you can't tell when a player loses his ability suddenly before making a big signing in the offseason. Or after an injury.
Cody, I respect what you say here but I agree with the others who said . . . that's [real] life!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
The thing that kills stats only for me is that it is not realistic.

In real life, GMs have stats and scouts. Sometimes, they say opposite things. Part of the skill is sorting that contrary information and weighing which one is right.
I think a few others mentioned that it is true realism, looking at it your way, to have the scouts and a written scouting report. The numbers and bars thing is not realistic if you really think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UWHabs View Post
Going with a combination of the written scouting report and the stats I find is a great mix that gives me just enough info to judge players, but not too much that I feel like I know exactly how they will do.
Agree, if SO is the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soxfan34 View Post
When we in the forums refer to Stats-Only, we mean the non-use of ratings.
Yes! Let's not start that debate again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkingturtle View Post
Stats Only saved the game for me. The ratings made the game way too easy and I had zero immersion. Whoever said it felt like Madden is dead-on. Personally, I use the reports still but I turn Scouting Accuracy to "low" so I'm made to trust them even less.

That's just me, though. I'm more likely to abandon a game I'm dominating than one which is dominating me. And when I do well with stats only--it is far more gratifying. I feel like a genuine baseball genius.
Nice summary of how one might feel who thinks the game is too easy and is looking for a greater challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth View Post
To each their own, but I find the opposite -- I feel like the scouting report provides an unrealistic hodge-podge of contradictory information that an actual scout would never provide. The ratings are more coherent, and can be as foggy or as specific as you want.

The scouting reports kill immersion for me in the same way that it seems like the ratings do for you.
Thank goodness the motto around here is "Play the game your way!" and they mean it!
__________________

- Bru


Déjà Bru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 01:51 PM   #50
Cinnamon J. Scudworth
All Star Starter
 
Cinnamon J. Scudworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,117
Thanks: 137
Thanked 563x in 327 posts
I'm honestly confused by this idea that rating skills numerically is not "realistic." The 20-80 scale (or 2-8) is a modern scouting convention, isn't it?

Of course people should play how they want to in order to get the most satisfaction from the game. And if that means increasing the difficulty level in some way by removing scouted ratings, that makes sense -- though I think that effect is less than often claimed. But the idea that it's more "realistic" (and the perceived condescencion sometimes creeps in with that statement) seems bizarre to me.
__________________
"Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket."

-Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason

Last edited by Cinnamon J. Scudworth; 07-31-2013 at 01:55 PM.
Cinnamon J. Scudworth is offline   Reply With Quote
4 thanks for this post:
dward1 (02-08-2014), mpejkrm (07-31-2013), Orcin (07-31-2013), SirMichaelJordan (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 02:03 PM   #51
Le Grande Orange
Hall Of Famer
 
Le Grande Orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Posts: 14,736
Thanks: 41
Thanked 4,408x in 2,483 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkingturtle View Post
That's just me, though. I'm more likely to abandon a game I'm dominating than one which is dominating me.
Heh, if the latter is true, then you'd never quit playing Race Into Space or its immediate predecessor Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space. The game is legendary for its degree of difficulty.
__________________
.
"You're sad that people are mean? Well, I'm sorry, the world isn't one big liberal arts campus."
— Reality, South Park

"You think you're so great with your maths and your science and your facts? What about feelings, huh?"
"Yeah. Feelings are more important that facts!"
— Penelope, Simon, Modern Educayshun
Le Grande Orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Barkingturtle (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 02:04 PM   #52
Syd Thrift
Hall Of Famer
 
Syd Thrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,191
Thanks: 385
Thanked 914x in 452 posts
Actually, the unrealistic aspect of non-SO styles of play is that in OOTP the scouts provide their ratings based on what the player's actual hidden ratings are. There may be a modifier provided based on how good the scout is and how accurate the ratings are set to be in your league, but that's what they look at in the end. In real life, the scouts can't just look at a guy and decide he's a good player (although in the past you did actually have guys saying someone has "the baseball face"... no, seriously). They have to watch the guy they're scouting play, too, and make decisions based on that.

One way I think future iterations of OOTP resolve this is to literally make scouts "watch" players and make judgments based on a small - let's say 4 or 5 games - sample size. Maybe they'd be able to get more out of it than someone who sees a guy go 10 for 20, but it ought to be organic to the game. If a guy gets into several 10 pitch at-bats, that's a good sign he has a decent eye, regardless of walk totals. A guy who hits a lot of line drives should be rated better for contact and maybe power, regardless of whether or not those liners land for hits. Likewise, a pitcher's control and stuff ratings can be influenced by the secondary outcomes of an at-bat rather than just the primary ones. And maybe there can be a *little* bit of pure ratings thrown on top that the scouts glean from watching BP and the like, but I would tread carefully with that because the world is full of guys who look like beasts in BP but can't translate that into hitting major league pitching.

(I also think that scouts shouldn't be rating guys on gap power. Yes, I realize that that's a rating in the game, but so is BABIP and there is no direct scouting rating for that either. For that matter, I'd like to see scouts translate high-ish gap power ratings into good potential power ratings, as there is a pervasive idea (which actually may have some truth behind it) that young players who hit a lot of doubles can fill out and turn into in-their-prime players who hit a lot of homeruns).

In the end, yes, that still means you're basing current ratings in particular on performance. That's the way it should be. Real life scouts do not have the magical ability to assess a player's true abilities by looking at him. Potential ratings are a little tougher to justify but consider this:

- Fielding ability, particularly the non-experience aspect of it, comprises skills which are probably at or near a player's maximum ability when he enters the draft (talking about range and arm in particular).
- Gap power, as noted, is thought to translate into HR power.
- Relatively skinny guys are expected to fill out as they age; conversely, 5'8" 150 pound players who are not currently hitting for power are also generally not expected to hit for power in the future
- BABIP generally starts out as high as it's ever going to get or close to that point
- Scouts can grade how decent a player is *right now* at fouling off pitches, recognizing balls and strikes, and otherwise doing the things that get you deep into counts, but I'm not sure they have a way of saying "this guy draws 40 walks a year now but has the potential to draw 100".
- Likewise with strikeouts. I hear all the time about how Minor League C-Level Prospect X could be a great major leaguer if he didn't strike out so much, but you never hear "and I think in time he will learn to strike out less" from scouts either.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hodgman
I didn't know that a dinosaur could do that much cocaine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn
You bastard....
Syd Thrift is offline   Reply With Quote
3 thanks for this post:
Cinnamon J. Scudworth (07-31-2013), PSUColonel (08-01-2013), Questdog (08-03-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 02:15 PM   #53
Orcin
Hall Of Famer
 
Orcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,839
Thanks: 3,854
Thanked 7,530x in 3,710 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
You missed my point about not fighting over this, didn't you?
Nope, I didn't miss it. I am not fighting about it. I just disagree with you, so I am explaining my contrary point of view.
__________________


My Fictional Dynasty: Orcin's Story ; The Sequel: Orcin Returns ; The Conclusion: Orcin's Brave New World
Orcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 02:16 PM   #54
Orcin
Hall Of Famer
 
Orcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,839
Thanks: 3,854
Thanked 7,530x in 3,710 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan View Post
I think what Orcin is saying is that looking at the ratings and scouting reports are basically the same thing If you know the game well enough. You can pretty much know what a specific sentence means and can translate it to a number. Of course things get more accurate with ratings as you up the scale but if someone is using a 1-5 scale or 2-8 scale then its pretty much the same as reading scouts if you know how they translate.

Exactly. Thank you.
__________________


My Fictional Dynasty: Orcin's Story ; The Sequel: Orcin Returns ; The Conclusion: Orcin's Brave New World
Orcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #55
Orcin
Hall Of Famer
 
Orcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,839
Thanks: 3,854
Thanked 7,530x in 3,710 posts
The notion that we are "fighting" about this is just absurd.

I am not saying that your definition of stats only is wrong or bad. Of course, everyone is entitled to play the game the way they want.

However, Wolf and others continue to say, and I paraphrase, "real men play stats only", "stats only is more challenging", "the game is too easy with numerical ratings" etc. Those are assertions that I dispute.

The mere addition of numerical ratings, which are inaccurate compared to the real ratings, does not appreciably alter the difficulty for a veteran player.

If it is more immersive and more fun for you, then by all means do it. Just don't tell us that anyone playing with numerical ratings is using training wheels (again I paraphrase).

Ok, now that I have made my point, can we all just stop fighting about this?
__________________


My Fictional Dynasty: Orcin's Story ; The Sequel: Orcin Returns ; The Conclusion: Orcin's Brave New World
Orcin is offline   Reply With Quote
4 thanks for this post:
Lukas Berger (08-01-2013), mattb_222 (07-31-2013), mpejkrm (07-31-2013), SirMichaelJordan (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 02:57 PM   #56
LeiterFanatic
All Star Starter
 
LeiterFanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,283
Thanks: 121
Thanked 131x in 78 posts
I wish I had never read past The Wolfs original post. Honestly. Thanks Wolf, for something to consider.

Last edited by LeiterFanatic; 07-31-2013 at 02:58 PM.
LeiterFanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
2 thanks for this post:
Scoman (07-31-2013), soxfan34 (08-02-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #57
Questdog
Hall Of Famer
 
Questdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases......
Posts: 12,885
Thanks: 2,000
Thanked 4,453x in 2,765 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cody8200 View Post
The only thing that kills it for me is that you can't tell when a player loses his ability suddenly before making a big signing in the offseason. Or after an injury. If there was some text dialog to help the stats only GM understand when a player is in for a decline, I would be on board. In real life you could just see the decline coming based on his pitch speed going down or looking bad at batting practice. Not the case in OOTP.
That's bogus.....no one ever could foresee a decline until the decline happens.....and in real baseball even when it is obvious that a player no longer is anything close to what he was, he will still get chances to play based on his name and the (stupid) hope that he will turn it around....
Questdog is offline   Reply With Quote
2 thanks for this post:
Lukas Berger (08-01-2013), USF (09-20-2017)
Old 07-31-2013, 03:47 PM   #58
The Wolf
Hall Of Famer
 
The Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
Posts: 12,612
Thanks: 1,790
Thanked 5,050x in 2,605 posts
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
.However, Wolf and others continue to say, and I paraphrase, "real men play stats only", "stats only is more challenging", "the game is too easy with numerical ratings" etc. Those are assertions that I dispute.player.
No, these are opinions that you feel compelled to attack for some odd reason. We just disagree. There's no need to fight.

You want to play vanilla? Great. We don't. You think it's just as hard? Great. We don't.

Play the game any way you like.
__________________
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
The Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
3 thanks for this post:
mpejkrm (07-31-2013), Scoman (07-31-2013), soxfan34 (08-02-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 04:01 PM   #59
Barkingturtle
Minors (Single A)
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 99
Thanks: 164
Thanked 71x in 43 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Play the game any way you like.
That should be the take-away. It's a testament to the versatility of the game itself that we can have so many varied ways of playing it and that we each enjoy it differently. I think this is pretty much the best game I've ever played and I am not ashamed to say I'm a pretty huge dork and have been for a long time.

In all honesty, though--this game is way harder if you play it extremely drunk. I don't think anyone could argue with that.
Barkingturtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Fyrestorm3 (07-31-2013)
Old 07-31-2013, 04:05 PM   #60
The Wolf
Hall Of Famer
 
The Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: All alone
Posts: 12,612
Thanks: 1,790
Thanked 5,050x in 2,605 posts
Infractions: 0/1 (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkingturtle View Post
That should be the take-away. It's a testament to the versatility of the game itself that we can have so many varied ways of playing it and that we each enjoy it differently.
Exactly. That should be the takeaway.

If Stats Only dors happen to intrigue you, though, I do encourage you to give it a try on your own.
__________________
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
The Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 PM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments