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Old 07-15-2016, 05:00 AM   #1
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Please remind me....need help for proper setting.

Okay, I finally pulled the trigger and got FHM2. I like it very much, great job guys. I started an historical league and the first draft was suspiciously deep and the second was damn near empty. I remembered this from the first FHM and I've tried searching the forums, but for the life of me I can't recall what to search for. It is a setting of some sort, right? Which one and what do I set it to?

Thank s for any help, Aaron

Update: well, I've run out of things I can think to look for. I've tried mixing "historical, draft, settings, etc" in my searches and cannot find what I am remembering.

As for the manual, it seems to indicate that the setting for historical draft essentially turns the draft on or off. Leaving it on seems to have moved up an entire draft class. But wouldn't turning it off eliminate the draft entirely? I'm am really hoping I won't have to sim out a couple years a bunch of times to try to figure this out. Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:51 PM   #2
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I've continued to search and it seems this is likely not a setting issue like with FHM 1 but something else entirely. Perhaps a bug? Does anyone have any feedback?
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Old 07-17-2016, 07:46 PM   #3
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Is there an OOTP/FHM holiday of which I am not aware? Over the past two and a half days I've posted in a couple of threads.

Here is one:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ars-again.html

Here is the other:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-feelings.html

The second one was not intended to lead into this discussion, but this problem was brought up and I posted some info about what I've experienced. To copy from that thread:
-------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam B View Post
What are you playing? More specifics? Historical? etc?

---

Gladly. I posted some info in two other threads earlier today, but I'm not sure if I did a very good job since I've not gotten any response. Here is a summary:

I am playing historical mode. I started in '73-74 as GM of the Minn Fighting Saints. I ran thru the year and then took over the KC Scouts as soon as the NHL expanded. The '74 draft was suspiciously deep, but I figured that this was just some changes made to how FHM2 was calculating what players were available in '74. For example, there were about ten rounds of players available, maybe more. Seems like a lot, but I wasn't sure.

Anyway, I played the '74-75 season and sucked, so I was looking forward to getting some talent, but when I saw the players eligible for the draft it was pretty sad. There was a total of 35 players in 1975 and none had a potential greater than 2.5 stars, let alone ability! So I stopped and posted here in the forum approx a day ago now.

In re: to settings, I am almost certain I remembered to check the box generating players for the draft. Otherwise I wouldn't have had a draft in '74, right? But what happened in '75? In The first FHM there was a bug where if you had a setting wrong some drafts could be empty, or nearly so, because too many people from one age group or another become available at the wrong time. Is that what is going on here? I finally found a couple threads of people who seem like they've had similar issues with the draft. They're near the top of the general discussion forum, but I can link them here if you would like me to.

Is there anything else you'd like to know that I haven't mentioned?

Thanks so much for any help. It is greatly appreciated, Aaron
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Old 07-17-2016, 08:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEWHistory View Post
Is there an OOTP/FHM holiday of which I am not aware? Over the past two and a half days I've posted in a couple of threads.
Sometimes we too need some time away or are busy working on other things (like FHM3). You've been noted and Jeff is going to reply, but he's quite busy at the moment, so as I'm sure he'll leave a more detailed message here later, but I believe this is the issue:

You are in a poor year for Draft classes.

FHM2's historical draft classes don't have as many players eligible as there was back then for one simple reason: There is too many poor players that got drafted and never made it to the NHL. Rather than have you waste time on a bunch of players whose stats are 1 or 2 stars (or below), the historical drafts focus on players who played at least 1 game in the NHL. The issue simply is in your particular draft year there just wasn't than many NHL players. Keep going, and you should notice an increased draft year the next.
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Old 07-17-2016, 11:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam B View Post
Sometimes we too need some time away or are busy working on other things (like FHM3). You've been noted and Jeff is going to reply, but he's quite busy at the moment, so as I'm sure he'll leave a more detailed message here later, but I believe this is the issue:

You are in a poor year for Draft classes.

FHM2's historical draft classes don't have as many players eligible as there was back then for one simple reason: There is too many poor players that got drafted and never made it to the NHL. Rather than have you waste time on a bunch of players whose stats are 1 or 2 stars (or below), the historical drafts focus on players who played at least 1 game in the NHL. The issue simply is in your particular draft year there just wasn't than many NHL players. Keep going, and you should notice an increased draft year the next.
If you look at my posting history you will see that I have been unreservedly enthusiastic and supportive of the designers and game. Moreover, I didn't expect anything even close to an immediate reply. I waited 2 1/2 days! So telling me that other people are busy is a nasty little bit of a reply, isn't it? I am busy as well and there are other things I can spend my time doing. I would also note that what you are essentially suggesting is that I should spend MY time running through the seasons the see if there is a problem. In essence, I will be performing a service AGAIN but I am a bother to reply to. Let me suggest that this is an unwise policy to adopt for the people who are not only not being paid but are themselves paying.

As for the suggestion to continue, it may well even out, but this sounds like I should just accept what is clearly a major game flaw. And yes, I have considered SIMing it out to experiment and reporting the results. But then again, that would be experimenting and trying to fix the game on my time again, right? I already did this for MANY hours on the first FHM while publicly defending the game makers against anyone who complained.

In re to the problem, 39 players, none of which have a potential greater than 2.5 stars, is much of a draft class. This shows that there is something amiss with the way the game is calculating who appears. In retrospect it is readily apparent to me that the players in the second years draft class moved up a year; this isn't just that this draft didn't have that many NHL players. Something similar happened in the first FHM. It was resolvable by changing a setting, but that option doesn't seem to be available any longer. The problem is that if the bug still exists without the old solution then the game has a serious problem. So I am sorry to have bothered you with a potential bug, but you have convinced me not to waste my time taking the side of the developers any longer.
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Old 07-17-2016, 11:52 PM   #6
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Below I have attached a PDF with the top players (potential wise) showing for my draft in 1975. No, it wasn't an awesome draft class, but it had Mel Bridgman, Willi Plett, Maruk, and some others. All of those people appeared already in the 1974 draft, just like with the error in the first FHM. What is left seems a tad ahistorical, no?
Attached Images
File Type: pdf sadlittledraft1975.pdf (185.0 KB, 92 views)
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:06 AM   #7
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The problem is, the NHL allowed underaged players to be taken in the first two rounds of the 1974. Right now, there's no easy way in the game to have draft eligibility vary by round in the same draft, so either we allow no underagers in 1974 and have some very significant players (Bryan Trottier, for example) not allowed to play until a year or two later than they did historically, or allow them to be taken in all rounds in 1974, which tends to deplete the draft pool badly for 1975 because the best 1955-born . We've gone with the latter.

I've taken a few steps to help with the situation - adding extra 1955-born players to the database to pad the 1975 draft pool, and changing a few settings to the way the 1974 draft handles league rights for players not selected in it. (And I think I'm also going to reduce the length of the 1974 draft as well, but haven't done that yet.) So now there are a few players, at least, showing up when you get to the 1975 draft, instead of none at all. But it's still going to be significantly weaker than other seasons until we come up with a way to do variable rules within a draft, and that's going to pose some challenges - not just coding the rules themselves, but getting the AI to handle the situation properly.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
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The problem is, the NHL allowed underaged players to be taken in the first two rounds of the 1974. Right now, there's no easy way in the game to have draft eligibility vary by round in the same draft, so either we allow no underagers in 1974 and have some very significant players (Bryan Trottier, for example) not allowed to play until a year or two later than they did historically, or allow them to be taken in all rounds in 1974, which tends to deplete the draft pool badly for 1975 because the best 1955-born . We've gone with the latter.

I've taken a few steps to help with the situation - adding extra 1955-born players to the database to pad the 1975 draft pool, and changing a few settings to the way the 1974 draft handles league rights for players not selected in it. (And I think I'm also going to reduce the length of the 1974 draft as well, but haven't done that yet.) So now there are a few players, at least, showing up when you get to the 1975 draft, instead of none at all. But it's still going to be significantly weaker than other seasons until we come up with a way to do variable rules within a draft, and that's going to pose some challenges - not just coding the rules themselves, but getting the AI to handle the situation properly.
i think I understand, but I'm not sure. So basically by modeling the way the NHL did things with the crop of players from that period meant that the players who should've gone in the 1975 draft ended up in the '74 draft? So that's why '74 is obscenely talented and '75 seems like a high school scrimmage squad? (Just kidding, but you get the idea.)

Is it possible to code a degree of variability in this? I have no idea how much work this would be, so maybe what I'm asking/suggesting would be unreasonable, but this would be a major bonus throughout all of the draft years. For example, let's say 5-10% of players become available the years after they would appeared and another few percent come a year early? Maybe that's too much, but it would smooth out the weird bump in '74 and not allow historical mode players to be able to count on certain players becoming available all of the time. Or does the game already do something like this?

As an aside, I don't mind uneven drafts, or even really bad drafts. That happens. It's just completely ahistorical that a draft would produce absolutely not a single NHL caliber player--probably not even a decent fourth liner. I don't think that's ever happened in sports history.

Despite my reaction before, I would like to help if I can. I enjoy this game a great deal and know you all work hard. I do as well, however, and didn't appreciate the response. For my part I could've handled that better. Thanks for the response, Aaron

Edit: the more I think about your post the more I think I understand the dilemma. So it basically comes down to accepting a lot of players early or a lot late for 74-75? Would it be possible to code a randomness to the underage players for just this period? for example, 50 of players underage in 1974 go into draft and 50% wait until 75? I'm totally fine with the variability. What's the point of replaying history if it's all going to be the same, right?
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Old 07-20-2016, 03:28 AM   #9
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I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it Jeff, but Trottier hasn't appeared in either of the 1974 drafts I've simmed. In the first sim he didn't appear in '75 either. G. and D. Trotter are already in the league, but the other Trots is MIA.
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Old 07-20-2016, 06:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEWHistory View Post
Edit: the more I think about your post the more I think I understand the dilemma. So it basically comes down to accepting a lot of players early or a lot late for 74-75? Would it be possible to code a randomness to the underage players for just this period? for example, 50 of players underage in 1974 go into draft and 50% wait until 75? I'm totally fine with the variability. What's the point of replaying history if it's all going to be the same, right?
That's the gist of the problem, yeah. I've been trying to think of a way to find a simple hack like that to get around the existing restrictions, but the point it usually fails on is the way the game handles rights for players made ineligible for the draft; it won't do much good if I exclude some underagers from the draft but they get turned into free agents anyhow. I think I'm going to try experimenting with a shortened 1974 draft and see how that works - looking at some test drafts, I see a lot of the real 1975 early first-rounders (Barry Dean, Rick Lapointe, Bryan Maxwell, etc.) going right around the end of the 5th or early in the 6th in 1974, so 5 rounds in 1974 might be the magic number to get a realistic 1975 draft pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEWHistory View Post
I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it Jeff, but Trottier hasn't appeared in either of the 1974 drafts I've simmed. In the first sim he didn't appear in '75 either. G. and D. Trotter are already in the league, but the other Trots is MIA.
Uh-oh, I see what's wrong, it looks like the bottom end of the age range in 1974 isn't set correctly. So Trottier's too young for both 1974 and 1975 and won't get drafted until 76. I'll get that fixed - kind of ironic that one of the biggest reasons for the whole 74/75 problem isn't even going in 74 like he's supposed to be. But at least the fix will add more guys to 74 and that'll help 75 (although 76 is going to get weakened now.)
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:23 PM   #11
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That's the gist of the problem, yeah. I've been trying to think of a way to find a simple hack like that to get around the existing restrictions, but the point it usually fails on is the way the game handles rights for players made ineligible for the draft; it won't do much good if I exclude some underagers from the draft but they get turned into free agents anyhow. I think I'm going to try experimenting with a shortened 1974 draft and see how that works - looking at some test drafts, I see a lot of the real 1975 early first-rounders (Barry Dean, Rick Lapointe, Bryan Maxwell, etc.) going right around the end of the 5th or early in the 6th in 1974, so 5 rounds in 1974 might be the magic number to get a realistic 1975 draft pool.



Uh-oh, I see what's wrong, it looks like the bottom end of the age range in 1974 isn't set correctly. So Trottier's too young for both 1974 and 1975 and won't get drafted until 76. I'll get that fixed - kind of ironic that one of the biggest reasons for the whole 74/75 problem isn't even going in 74 like he's supposed to be. But at least the fix will add more guys to 74 and that'll help 75 (although 76 is going to get weakened now.)
I've been playing around with this problem in my head and I got to thinking: what did you guys do for the first FHM? I don't recall this being an issue back then.

If I understand it correctly, you're trying to simulate the unique situation that occurred in the mid-70s with the NHl draft, but I also understand that the historical mode is t your top priority, much less FHM2 now that you guys are working on the next version. I'm just wondering if this is an issue that can be left for the future. As an ardent HM player I can tell you I would rather have the players enter one year late or early than have an entire draft disappear and things like that. Perhaps other HM players like Duranium can put in their $.02, but as for me I'd be fine with the easiest solution that allows you guys to move on. Or is that no longer possible?
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:23 AM   #12
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I've been playing around with this problem in my head and I got to thinking: what did you guys do for the first FHM? I don't recall this being an issue back then.

If I understand it correctly, you're trying to simulate the unique situation that occurred in the mid-70s with the NHl draft, but I also understand that the historical mode is t your top priority, much less FHM2 now that you guys are working on the next version. I'm just wondering if this is an issue that can be left for the future. As an ardent HM player I can tell you I would rather have the players enter one year late or early than have an entire draft disappear and things like that. Perhaps other HM players like Duranium can put in their $.02, but as for me I'd be fine with the easiest solution that allows you guys to move on. Or is that no longer possible?
Hey Aaron, glad youīre back on board

tbh, this mid-70īs draft problem isnīt something i would take too serious right now.
Itīs only the 2nd edition of FHM so far and beside the fact that itīs the only hockey managment sim with a historical mode (thank god) thhis mode is already in great shape due to the great DB work by JeffR.
As historical play will get at least the same developers love in the future as it already received to this point Iīm pretty sure that draft issues from 1972-1980 will eventually get fixed in the not so distant future
As it stands atm, always remember to turn your 1975 picks into more useful stuff via trade.

And Aaron, donīt forget - FHM3 will hopefully start our online rivalry in 1974
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:11 PM   #13
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Hey Aaron, glad youīre back on board

tbh, this mid-70īs draft problem isnīt something i would take too serious right now.
Itīs only the 2nd edition of FHM so far and beside the fact that itīs the only hockey managment sim with a historical mode (thank god) thhis mode is already in great shape due to the great DB work by JeffR.
As historical play will get at least the same developers love in the future as it already received to this point Iīm pretty sure that draft issues from 1972-1980 will eventually get fixed in the not so distant future
As it stands atm, always remember to turn your 1975 picks into more useful stuff via trade.

And Aaron, donīt forget - FHM3 will hopefully start our online rivalry in 1974
Hey Tom!

Glad to be back. I'm looking forward to FHM3 and finally starting our rivalry. Nothing will be able to to hold back my Kansas City Scouts all-star team.*

Btw, I don't mean to imply that the crew hasn't put in a helluva lot of work--I hope it doesn't come off that way. I know this has taken a lot of under appreciated work and I'm surprised at how fast the game has evolved.

Mostly I think that this draft issue caught my attention because I don't recall anything like it in the first FHM and it happens very early in the games I start due to when the begin. I admit it disappointed me at first but I don't mind working around it until a fix is found. One thing I'm trying not to do tho is milk the situation. I figure if I trade the 1975 picks then I'm basically making purchases with worthless currency. That's unfair to the PC, so I keep my '75 picks. Right now I'm tinkering with adding a few players to the game to give '75 a tad more flesh--maybe even enough for three full rounds and a couple good players.

In any event, I recognize that this is something that may be more important to me than other HM players, so I'm trying to keep my expectations in line.

Btw, I seem to recall that there was a graphics pack that someone created (I think it was you?) that allowed the generic faces to be replaced by historic pics. Is that still around and does it work with this version? I've just gotta have some of those '70s mustaches to look at!

Best, Aaron

*- put that among the list of sentences I never thought I'd ever write.
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