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Old 05-23-2014, 05:36 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
I was in that discussion, and I don't think that any of that happened except for him being persistent. Which he should have been, because he was in the right.
I'm always persistent =D. I think the whole thing about me me apocalyptic is perhaps because I don't word things too well at times. The one phrase that I did perhaps use a bit flippantly was "licensed games can go to hell".

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Originally Posted by injury log View Post
But there is no chance Markus would ever accept such a licensing agreement.
Indeed, but that in itself might end up harming the game (not as much as accepting it though) because it would put off potential buyers.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by DCG12 View Post
[/B]



Ok I have stayed out of all this nonsense until now. Markus discussed the MLB issue in greater detail with the beta team a couple weeks ago and asked us to maintain confidentiality which most have done. I wish he had shared in more detail with the general forum but it is his choice not to at this time for whatever reason.

With that said, the bolded parts of the post are pure crap. MLB has been aware of OOTP for at least 2 years ever since they made Markus take logo's out of iOOTP. The fact that Markus doesn't have a license yet has more to do with the glacial pace of MLB then the fact that Markus isn't trying or isn't happy with terms.

All the doom and gloom is at polar opposites with how Markus presented it to the beta team. MLB doesn't want to bankrupt OOTP unless OOTP blatantly thumbs its nose at them.

One last thing that people forget in all their legal advising is that OOTP is a German company where trademark law is different and complicates matters somewhat.


Ok I've said all I can without Markus hunting me down and clubbing me with a beer stein but I really wish people would back off all the wild-eyed speculation.
Thanks for the information!

Folks, calm down.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:49 PM   #83
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Markus isn't concerned, so the rest of you should not be. End of story.

Besides, the worst-case scenario is that OOTP isn't allowed to ship with proper team names (or workarounds ) anymore. And that's not a big deal. I just uploaded a Quickstart this afternoon that has all the proper names. It would literally take less than a day every time a patch is released for someone from the modding community to upload a new MLB Quickstart. Is it ideal? No. But it's not a massive problem, either.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:14 PM   #84
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I am most afraid of Markus not allowing configuration to story lines, team names, player names, the things that first come to mind when I think of the game's nuances. While I'm perfectly fine playing fictional-only, it's the loss of freedom that scares me.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:16 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by baseballfan83 View Post
The fact that OOTP was forced to remove the names so promptly speaks volumes about the MLB.

In the very least, it means that the developers of OOTP were unable to agree with the MLB upon fair terms for the use of the license. The implications of that are fairly damning.
  • They wanted enough in royalties to effectively make development of the game a non-profitable venture.
  • They didn't entertain the idea of OOTP obtaining a license, and didn't even extend the opportunity to the OOTP team.
  • OOTP simply didn't have enough time to review the terms of licensing with legal council.

The third bullet is the best case scenario because it means there is hope for the future that an agreement can be reached. The fact that they were forced to remove the names in the mean time, though, makes me less hopeful. .
This is not at all what's happening. When trademark holders license their marks, they are required to ensure the quality of licensed products. If the quality of a licensed product is not of the standard the public associates with the trademark, the holder risks facing a judgment that they have abandoned the trademark, and losing their rights to it. Look up 'naked licensing' if you want to know more. So if MLB is going to license their trademarks to OOTP, they aren't going to send OOTP a letter in the morning and come to an agreement in the afternoon. It's going to take them some time before they'll even discuss it. And Markus wouldn't be able to do anything immediately either, since he'd need legal representation to proceed. Since OOTP just received notification from MLB a few days ago, there's nothing whatsoever "damning" about the fact that no agreement has yet been reached. And as DCG12 pointed out above, your first two bullet points are simply not the case.

And you seem to think MLB is going to make a lot of money from a licensing deal ("The MLB wants a piece of the pie"). You might not realize just how small an operation OOTP is, but any licensing fee MLB receives won't cover their legal costs.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:17 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-23-2014, 06:19 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by thevaliantx View Post
I am most afraid of Markus not allowing configuration to story lines, team names, player names, the things that first come to mind when I think of the game's nuances. While I'm perfectly fine playing fictional-only, it's the loss of freedom that scares me.
You aren't going to be forced to play fictional-only, and you aren't going to lose any features. My god, where is this doomsday idea coming from? If there are no real team names, the modding community will fix that. And Markus himself has 100% assured us that, even if PED suspensions and the like have to be removed from the MLB Quickstart (which, again, would EASILY be fixed by the modding community), if they demand anything more than that, he simply won't license:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn
No worries. Everything is up for negotiation of course. But if we had to remove important features, we'd not get a license. I guess the only thing that will have to be removed for real players are drug suspensions and certain storylines (which would still work for fictional players, the system to differentiate between these is already supported in the storyline code).
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:21 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by injury log View Post
This is not at all what's happening. When trademark holders license their marks, they are required to ensure the quality of licensed products. If the quality of a licensed product is not of the standard the public associates with the trademark, the holder risks facing a judgment that they have abandoned the trademark, and losing their rights to it. Look up 'naked licensing' if you want to know more. So if MLB is going to license their trademarks to OOTP, they aren't going to send OOTP a letter in the morning and come to an agreement in the afternoon. It's going to take them some time before they'll even discuss it. And Markus wouldn't be able to do anything immediately either, since he'd need legal representation to proceed. Since OOTP just received notification from MLB a few days ago, there's nothing whatsoever "damning" about the fact that no agreement has yet been reached. And as DCG12 pointed out above, your first two bullet points are simply not the case.

And you seem to think MLB is going to make a lot of money from a licensing deal ("The MLB wants a piece of the pie"). You might not realize just how small an operation OOTP is, but any licensing fee MLB receives won't cover their legal costs.
DCG12 also pointed out that Markus hasn't just been dealing with the MLB in the last couple of days.

Quote:
MLB has been aware of OOTP for at least 2 years ever since they made Markus take logo's out of iOOTP. The fact that Markus doesn't have a license yet has more to do with the glacial pace of MLB then the fact that Markus isn't trying or isn't happy with terms.
So, now I'm getting conflicting information here. Did they just send him a "letter" yesteday, or does Markus not have a license yet because the MLB moves at a "glacial pace".

They made him remove logos already from the game, which would indicate this isn't the first time the MLB has dictated that he stop using their trademarked brand(s).

Listen, my post wasn't meant to be all doom and gloom. It was meant to be a realist perspective on how greedy corporations like the MLB operate.

You can sit here all day and pretend like the MLB is going to give Markus a fair deal. However, if that were the case, then don't you think he'd have a license already? I do.

And yes. MLB will make a good portion of money from the sales. If you think this game isn't going to blow up now that it is on the Steam platform, then you know nothing about the influence of Steam. Feel free to research into other one-man operation games that blew up into multi-million dollar sales after being featured on Steam. It wouldn't exactly be Earth-shattering for OOTB to see a 200% increase in sales (or quite a bit more to be honest).

Last edited by baseballfan83; 05-23-2014 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:38 PM   #89
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Can you please release just update patchers like the previous years. Its not that big of a deal but it is nicer to just install a patcher than download an entire new full game installer.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:42 PM   #90
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Markus will always get my money, because he makes a solid product that I enjoy playing.

Having played computer baseball simulations since 1987 (Computer Baseball for the Apple II), I have typed in a zillion teams, nicknames, players and stats. I am sure I'm not the only one.

One of the perils of a small, somewhat tightly-wound group of pseudo-lawyers...um, I mean, brotherhood-like community such as this one is that we are privy to a lot of news that we wouldn't get, if stuff like this was happening to, say, EA.

Even if you bought every FIFA game they ever made, you'd never hear a peep about licensing issues they might be having with the Premiership.

Markus will get a license, or he won't.

Will this matter to most of us, in terms of enjoying the game? Will it cause most of us to stop supporting him?

Nope.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:52 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Statsman1 View Post
Markus will get a license, or he won't.

Will this matter to most of us, in terms of enjoying the game? Will it cause most of us to stop supporting him?

Nope.
And this is what it all boils down too. Whether he gets a license or not, doesn't change the fact that this is the greatest baseball simulator out there. He'll get my money too.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:51 PM   #92
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Cool Remember to breathe....

After reading this thread, I must say it was quite entertaining.

1) Of course MLB, a multi-billion dollar industry does not need this bit of money to sustain itself but
2) Like any other large corporation their attorneys can make the water boil around a relatively small fish
3) losing nicknames, clearly a surmountable problem
4) let's have at a little bit of faith in the people who bring us the best sports sim game ....ever to figure out the next steps

I'm ready to prepay for OOTP 16 right now.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:00 PM   #93
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And this is what it all boils down too. Whether he gets a license or not, doesn't change the fact that this is the greatest baseball simulator out there. He'll get my money too.
Hell yes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-23-2014, 09:04 PM   #94
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And maybe, just maybe, we can leave it all at that.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:50 PM   #95
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I'm glad to see new Features coming in next update but already gave my Ideas.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by endgame View Post
And maybe, just maybe, we can leave it all at that.
...and maybe not

With all the speculation, I'm just a tad surprised that no one mentioned what might (or might not) happen to the historical modes of the game.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:16 PM   #97
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...and maybe not

With all the speculation, I'm just a tad surprised that no one mentioned what might (or might not) happen to the historical modes of the game.
I think this was the only official comment on the matter: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3699866
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:31 PM   #98
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I think this was the only official comment on the matter: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3699866
Thanks for the link. I missed that post before but I see that historical is affected the same as current day. I'm curious if MLBPA gets involved what the deal would be with retired players. I don't know how far back the MLBPA goes and to what extent it covers players likenesses from the past, but that might actually cause a big hiccup.

If for some reason they force Markus to take out current and past players, I wonder if it would be hard to explain the purpose of OOTP's historical mode if those historical players/real-life stats/true-to-history expansion and transactions, etc were disallowed.

EDIT: I know modders have us taken care of, but could the historical mode itself disappear?

Last edited by Papa3; 05-23-2014 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Added a thought
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Papa3 View Post
Thanks for the link. I missed that post before but I see that historical is affected the same as current day. I'm curious if MLBPA gets involved what the deal would be with retired players. I don't know how far back the MLBPA goes and to what extent it covers players likenesses from the past, but that might actually cause a big hiccup.

If for some reason they force Markus to take out current and past players, I wonder if it would be hard to explain the purpose of OOTP's historical mode if those historical players/real-life stats/true-to-history expansion and transactions, etc were disallowed.

EDIT: I know modders have us taken care of, but could the historical mode itself disappear?
The only known factor that's been discussed is team nicknames. Beyond that is pure speculation and, while imaginative, serves as needless kindling IMHO.

EDIT: To your EDIT, no, I can't imagine that ever happening.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:40 PM   #100
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Before I get into the effect this has on historical mode, I would like to point out that German law is different than American law. Now, with that out of the way, let's talk about historicals.

"Traditional" video games have been allowed to use the names of MLBPA-affiliated current players as well as historical Hall of Fame players. Current players not affiliated with the MLBPA and historical players not in the Hall of Fame are not covered by that agreement, and may have to be negotiated separately with MLB.
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