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OOTP 18 - General Discussions Everything about the 2017 version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA.

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Old 02-09-2017, 03:22 PM   #21
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I wonder what this would actually take to implement, and if there is anything the community could do on a volunteer basis to reduce the workload for the developers.
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:59 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Charley575 View Post
I wonder what this would actually take to implement, and if there is anything the community could do on a volunteer basis to reduce the workload for the developers.
Indeed. I can't personally aide on anything involving coding, but a community effort in research and database would be great to see. Hope for OOTP19 or 20.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:13 PM   #23
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The AAGBPL and its players are in the OOTP database. They are just not used (yet).
This is good to know. Thanks!
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:30 PM   #24
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Edit: they are in the game.... well then people can make the leagues if they are motivated... if you are feeling magnanimous, upload a template or somethign for those with similar interests. i'm as interested in women's baseball as i am with the independent leaguers whom are clinging to their high school glory days, lol. i wouldn't try to prevent those who enjoy independent leagues from experiencing that through a video game, though. i don't get why there's such static about women players... it's clearly a gender issue, and not a baseball issue - whether those doing it can admit it or not... there's no logic to being against it from that point of view - additional profit would be the only logical concern (mentioned below).


i quoted somethign but after the initial response to that it's more general in nature, lol... so i just removed it.

within the last 5 years (not sure when i read it) there was at least 1 woman on the MLB prospect list or something official and at least strongly connected to the MLB draft. that baseball list directly relates to the names that are available for the mlb draft etc... somethign to that effect.

she was a shortstop, if i recall... and european, maybe? maybe it was french canadian? for some reason i want to say the language was not english - faded memory, possibly a crossed wire in the brain.

it' probably will happen eventually. that isn't even a logical argument for or against, but it's been used as one, regardless. you can never prove non-existence, so don't try. you can only prove existence or you cannot. that doesn't mean it doesn't exist... it means you can't prove it does.

a lack of a mlb women player doens't prove anythign does not exist (the chance in this case). secondly, the game isn't about the MLB, it's about baseball in the entire world. almost all the reasons used against including women's leagues can be used to excule just about every league except the MLB. there is literally no logical ground to stand on arguin against their inclusion... therefore, it's simply ignorance at the root. there are plenty of options in this game that i turn off... but i would never have the gall to force others to not use those options nor prevent a new option from being available. no reason for it... so it's got to be emotionally driven dreck based on some culturally-contstucted nonesense that some people feel about the female gender.

*********
this argument reeks of double standards and fallacious reasoning. if it's in the game, you don't have to use it. if it's in the game and you don't have to use it, you shouldn't care 2 cents about it, if you don't like it.

plenty of settings i dislike or don't use... may or may not be associated with nonsensical illogical feelings, too. however, i wouldn't allow my nonsense to prevent another person from using those features, if unlike me they liked those features.

there is absolutely no philosophical barrier for women professional baseball players being in a game that simulates baseball as well as historic baseball leagues. The only reason to do or not to do it is ROI. return on investment. if it is worth it, it should be done for obvious reasons.

this isn't politics. it's a vidoe game. either it generate extra profit or it does not.

Men are stronger and faster than women, in general -> true statement.

But, this isn't a question about a generalization of 2 genders... this is a question about individuals... most men can never play the majors, so does that mean we should exclude men, too? every single person readin this does not have the phyiscal attributes to play ANY professional sport of note (some no-name sport that people play in a small region? sure, but not a real major professional sport)

most of you reading this couldn't beat a women's college athlete at anything, lol. that's what i find most entertaining about this. a bunch of dudes that are likely terrible at sports complaining about someone not being good enogh to be in a video game about he sport.

*********

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Old 02-09-2017, 06:38 PM   #25
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I'm sure it would offer great publicity but i don't know how many people would actually utilize woman's leagues. I can only speak for myself here, but I would gain mild entertainment creating a coed pro league with a minimum number of woman players in the lineup. But beyond experimenting with that, personally i wouldn't use it.
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:49 PM   #26
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like you said - publicity.

that can create additional revenue even if the feature ends up not being used much. all about money, so you strip away the stuff that isn't important - liek whether it's played or not. (although that obviously has importance in most cases, just not the example given).

you said you'd use it, too... even if a passing fancy. mostly unused is still used.
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:11 PM   #27
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Revenue and publicity are two very different things. In the end, it's all speculation. The hardcore may just see it more as a gimmick though in the end it wouldn't affect them. Unless it's an easy implementation, I just don't foresee a big enough demand for it to come to fruition. But you never know. In the end, everyone wants to see the game continue to grow.
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:30 PM   #28
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Coed independent leagues would be cool. Like I said previously, I spend most of my time on modern and fictional - many of which are not national or professional leagues. Love doing short sims of fantasy leagues, and a women's league would only be a plus. And as we all know, if you don't want it, don't play it. Doesn't hurt to have it included. I would rather have females added to the game than extra historical statistics, personally. We all have different likings.
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Old 02-09-2017, 10:19 PM   #29
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:30 PM   #30
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well one thing is for certain, if there is big enough demand for it OOTP will add it one day. Promotion/Relegation speaks for that! In the end, i'm all for anything that allows users the customization to create the baseball world their imaginations can come up with.
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:31 PM   #31
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EDIT: opps double post.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:41 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
i don't get why there's such static about women players... it's clearly a gender issue, and not a baseball issue - whether those doing it can admit it or not... there's no logic to being against it from that point of view - additional profit would be the only logical concern (mentioned below).
It's a gender issue only in the sense that the core of the game recreates professional baseball. And in professional baseball, there have been no female players, certainly not at the highest levels. (Once more: AAGPL did not follow the official baseball rules.)

Now, if it wasn't a big deal to make the changes, fine. But it apparently is, so cost versus benefit and reality versus fiction considerations come into play.

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a lack of a mlb women player doens't prove anythign does not exist (the chance in this case)...
No. But one can look at biological reality and come to a reasonable conclusion. It's one thing to compare top-tier female athletes to the average guy on the street. It's another thing entirely to compare top-tier female athletes to top-tier male athletes. When you do that, biology and sexual dimorphism exerts itself.

Consider this one tiny example: in the 2016 Summer Olympics, the gold medal-winning time for the 10,000m women's race, had she run in the men's 10,000m event, would have put her in 32nd place. That's the kind of gulf which exists when comparing top tier to top tier.

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secondly, the game isn't about the MLB, it's about baseball in the entire world.
Not really. The primary way the game is played, according to OOTP Developments own data, is the MLB league supplied with the game.

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Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
...almost all the reasons used against including women's leagues can be used to excule just about every league except the MLB.]
Show me a professional league where the players were woman and played the game according to the official baseball rules. The AAGPBL fails that test because it never played by the official baseball rules. (The pitching distance, base path distance, and ball size all varied from that specified in the official rules.)

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... so it's got to be emotionally driven dreck based on some culturally-contstucted nonesense that some people feel about the female gender.
Repeat after me: Biology. Sexual dimorphism.

While it is popular in certain circles these days to pretend these things don't exist, they do. You can verify this for yourself by comparing, for example, the men's and women's results in the Olympics for the same events. The evidence is ample and unequivocal.

Do not make the mistake in thinking that acknowledging and accepting the biological reality is somehow a value or moral judgement. It isn't. It has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

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this argument reeks of double standards and fallacious reasoning. if it's in the game, you don't have to use it. if it's in the game and you don't have to use it, you shouldn't care 2 cents about it, if you don't like it.
You apparently missed the statements from the developers themselves where the difficulty in making such a change was explained.

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there is absolutely no philosophical barrier for women professional baseball players being in a game that simulates baseball as well as historic baseball leagues.
There is, however, a realistic one: to my knowledge, there have been no professional baseball leagues with only women players. The AAGPBL perhaps comes the closest, but as stated, it never actually played the game according to the official rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
this isn't politics.
You're right. It's about biology, the real-world performance differences between top tier male and female athletes, the level of core realism the user base might prefer to see in the game, and the difficulty of adding yet more customizable features to a game already packed with them.

Quote:
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Men are stronger and faster than women, in general -> true statement.
For professional athletes, you are comparing top tier men to top tier women. And the gulf in performance is large.

As mentioned, the fastest woman in the 10,000m race in the 2016 Olympics would have finished 32nd had she posted that time in the men's event. Want more examples? The gold medal-winning time in the women's 100m was 10.71; the 8th place time in the men's 100m final was 10.06. The gold medal-winning distance for the women's shotput was 20.63; that would have placed 9th in the men's event—and the women's shotput is only 55% the weight of the men's. The gold medal-winning time in the women's 100m breaststroke was 1:04.93; the 8th place time in the men's 100m breaststroke finals was 59.95. And so on.

That is the biological reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoOne View Post
But, this isn't a question about a generalization of 2 genders... this is a question about individuals... most men can never play the majors, so does that mean we should exclude men, too?
You evidently missed the point of that statement.

Quote:
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most of you reading this couldn't beat a women's college athlete at anything, lol.
True enough, most likely. But those women college athletes wouldn't be competing against us, the average Joe Schmo. They'd be competing against men college athletes. That's a whole different level of competition, one where biology inescapably works in favour of the men and against the women.

To paraphrase a Robert Heinlein novel title, biology is a harsh mistress.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:12 AM   #33
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I am not certain that female players should be a priority for OOTP until one gets to the majors. If there is a female player on a major league roster she should be in the game. LGO is correct when he says the fastest and strongest man is almost surely faster than the fastest and strongest woman. However baseball is a game that does not absolutely depend on either.

Baseball is a game as well as a sport. It requires hand-eye coordination, quick thinking, and a hundred other things that have little to do with either speed or strength. When it comes to playing the game there are literally dozens of baseball players who are less than athletic. Maybe the question should be can a woman hit a 90 mile an hour fast ball 400 feet? I bet there is one who can. Can a woman beat David Ortiz down the line on a slow ground ball? I bet there are a few.

There are already girls in little league, female barnstorming teams, and I believe there will be a woman playing minor league ball in the next five years. The WNBA has proven that women can play a professional and physical game on an extremely high level. Sports are simply not just for the swift and the strong. Will there be a woman playing MLB in the next decade? Yeah, I think so. When she gets there I hope Markus has that whole pronoun thing figured out.
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Old 02-10-2017, 08:09 AM   #34
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Bravo LGO! I'm glad someone broke that rant down
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:58 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
Not really. The primary way the game is played, according to OOTP Developments own data, is the MLB league supplied with the game.
While it may be MLB centered, you still have the ability to create anything from worldwide-scale 40-team leagues, to local 4-team independent leagues, to a completely fantasized world. Baseball has had barriers broken before, I just think it'd be great to see it in a fictional world beforehand.

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Show me a professional league where the players were woman and played the game according to the official baseball rules. The AAGPBL fails that test because it never played by the official baseball rules. (The pitching distance, base path distance, and ball size all varied from that specified in the official rules.)
This is why every league apart from the AAGPBL would be fictional. (If it is true that the names are already in the database).
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There is, however, a realistic one: to my knowledge, there have been no professional baseball leagues with only women players. The AAGPBL perhaps comes the closest, but as stated, it never actually played the game according to the official rules.
Again, I don't like this entire argument of "it hasn't been done before, so it can't be done in game". There haven't been 40-team world baseball leagues, or baseball on the Ruthlandia and Tycobbia islands. The addition of females to this game would open up a variety of fictional play throughs which would eventually help when one does reach - or come near to reaching - the majors.

I can see why many wouldn't play it, but I think we should all at least somewhat support the addition of this feature.
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:14 AM   #36
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Simply put, I don't see it as a political or biological issue. I see it as an OOTP issue. We've come a long way with MLB and historical, and I'd like to see the fictional feature go further with more options, such as easier fantasy universes, and of course, female players.
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:30 AM   #37
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Maybe the question should be can a woman hit a 90 mile an hour fast ball 400 feet? I bet there is one who can. Can a woman beat David Ortiz down the line on a slow ground ball? I bet there are a few.
An all round athlete like say Jessica Ennis-Hill, given the right coaching from a young age almost certainly could do both. Someone like Serena Williams could probably hit a ball 450ft if you could teach her to hit.
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:35 AM   #38
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Simply put, I don't see it as a political or biological issue. I see it as an OOTP issue. We've come a long way with MLB and historical, and I'd like to see the fictional feature go further with more options, such as easier fantasy universes, and of course, female players.
Agreed on this.

From a coding point of view, it is a matter of adding a field to the database, and adding a modified version of the player creation and devolopment code to account for differing attributes between men and women, then maybe adding gender specific storylines (a field in the xml that says <... women only="1" ...> would do).

Depending on how the code is structured that might well be easier said than done (plus it would require a fair amount of debugging).
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:28 PM   #39
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Agreed on this.

From a coding point of view, it is a matter of adding a field to the database, and adding a modified version of the player creation and devolopment code to account for differing attributes between men and women, then maybe adding gender specific storylines (a field in the xml that says <... women only="1" ...> would do).

Depending on how the code is structured that might well be easier said than done (plus it would require a fair amount of debugging.
and facegen
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:39 PM   #40
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and facegen
Indeed. I forgot about that.
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