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Old 04-14-2017, 02:10 PM   #41
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CMH, The OP asked what the difference between the two roles are, Not defining the roles as it pertains to RL Baseball would make any other explanation confusing for the OP Unless he knows what the actual historiacl difference is, he has nothing to tell him if OOTP is simulating the differences correctly. This just happens to be one area where OOTP does a very good job of "Art imitates life" So the post so far have all been relevant for the most part.

The good news is I just happen to be in an online league (AHBL) where GM's use both the Closer role and Stopper roles in 1977 so I have some real OOTP stats to share with everyone. Granted this league is currently still using OOTP17, the logistics and Mechanics and Statistical output should still be in this ballpark in 18, we'll know soon enough as the league switches to 18 soon. And I can't say with 100% certainty, but I believe the "Stopper" Role is only available until a certain time in History, Because My league HSBL (Started in 1975 and currently in 1997, no longer has "Stopper role" available and It most certainly did early on.

Stan Perzanowski is my STOPPER full time this season 35G 57.2ip





Al Hrabosky is the A's Closer this season 35g 39ip



There are several more examples in this league (Mark Schaffer, Orioles Stopper 44g/76ip - Billy McCool Reds Closer 27g 27ip) and I could list more but the same basic trend is there, More innings and decisions for the stopper, and less innings and more saves by the Closer. I don't feel like any way is better, they are just different, now maybe this will change going forward into the Modern era, but in a 1977 league, it works exactly as you would thing and hope it would. This is the way it is supposed to be in a "simulation"
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Old 04-14-2017, 02:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post
CMH, The OP asked what the difference between the two roles are, Not defining the roles as it pertains to RL Baseball would make any other explanation confusing for the OP Unless he knows what the actual historiacl difference is, he has nothing to tell him if OOTP is simulating the differences correctly. This just happens to be one area where OOTP does a very good job of "Art imitates life" So the post so far have all been relevant for the most part.

The good news is I just happen to be in an online league (AHBL) where GM's use both the Closer role and Stopper roles in 1977 so I have some real OOTP stats to share with everyone. Granted this league is currently still using OOTP17, the logistics and Mechanics and Statistical output should still be in this ballpark in 18, we'll know soon enough as the league switches to 18 soon. And I can't say with 100% certainty, but I believe the "Stopper" Role is only available until a certain time in History, Because My league HSBL (Started in 1975 and currently in 1997, no longer has "Stopper role" available and It most certainly did early on.

Stan Perzanowski is my STOPPER full time this season 35G 57.2ip





Al Hrabosky is the A's Closer this season 35g 39ip



There are several more examples in this league (Mark Schaffer, Orioles Stopper 44g/76ip - Billy McCool Reds Closer 27g 27ip) and I could list more but the same basic trend is there, More innings and decisions for the stopper, and less innings and more saves by the Closer. I don't feel like any way is better, they are just different, now maybe this will change going forward into the Modern era, but in a 1977 league, it works exactly as you would thing and hope it would. This is the way it is supposed to be in a "simulation"
Thanks very helpful. So I does seem that teams will use both of the roles. Do you however find that some teams go with only over the other? I would
Prefer that
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Old 04-14-2017, 03:35 PM   #43
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Thanks very helpful. So I does seem that teams will use both of the roles. Do you however find that some teams go with only over the other? I would
Prefer that
In my experience when using the stopper alone, a Lefty Specialist will rarely ever pitch. When using a stopper and closer on the same team the closer will get less work only being used if the Stopper becomes fatigued, and if the stopper is very fatigued you may see the closer pitch 3 games in a row, but then you may see him sit the bench for a week or two. And your usage option choice has a lot to do with it .

Right now in the AHBL the Giants have a Closer set to 9th or later and a stopper at 8th or later and a lead. The Closer is 24g/31.2ip 3-5 with 9sv. The Stopper is 36g/62ip 2-1 with 20sv. I looked at all their Box scores for the year and there was 1 game they both pitched in and it went 12 innings. The SF GM may be onto something as they have the best record in the league at 73-39
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Old 04-14-2017, 03:51 PM   #44
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I have been advocating to make both roles, stopper & closer, available regardless of the 'use of closer' setting. I tend to prefer the stopper role because I like to be more flexible as to when my best RP is used. To me games aren't just 'saved' in the 9th inning. Big situations that could mean a win or loss could come up at any time.

The reason I'd like both to always be available is that I am primarily an online league player and I think each human GM should/could have the choice of using ether stoppers or closers, or both I guess though not sure how that would work. Plus it isn't always possible to convince the commish to alter the 'use of closer' setting.

If there is concern in historical leagues or solo leagues that this would negatively affect the AI or the game I guess making both stopper and closer available simultneously could be an option.
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Old 04-14-2017, 03:59 PM   #45
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...but I believe the "Stopper" Role is only available until a certain time in History
The availability of the stopper role is controlled by the 'Use of Closers' setting. If it is set to 'Normal', ' Rarely' or 'Very Rarely' the stopper role will be available along with the closer role.
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:16 PM   #46
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The availability of the stopper role is controlled by the 'Use of Closers' setting. If it is set to 'Normal', ' Rarely' or 'Very Rarely' the stopper role will be available along with the closer role.
Well, then in a round about way I am correct, because there comes a point in Historical Leagues where the default "use closer setting" goes above "normal"
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:48 PM   #47
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So what's normal closer usage? About 20 saves for league highs?
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave View Post
Mark Buerhle, Greg Maddux, and Trevor Hoffman.
The lowest ERA of Mark Buerhle's career was 3.59. He was a reliable starter, never dominant. Greg Maddux was last dominant sixteen years ago. Hoffman had his last dominant season eight years ago, so I guess he slips in, barely.

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Last year's ERA leader in the NL was Kyle Hendricks, one of the softest tossers in the league.
Fair point; but the fact that 86-87 makes him one of the softest tossers in the league kind of makes my point. Thirty years ago, that was average. Steve Carlton was considered a great power pitcher throwing in the low-90s. The league average has risen from 89 to 92 just in the last 16 years.

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If Marshall were pitching today and he was locating his screwball, hitters would have just as tough a time now as then. The vocation is "pitching", not "throwing".
And yet every team in the majors has decided that running one hard thrower after the other gives them their best chance to win in the late innings.


Mind you, I don't like the current style; I prefer more skill and finesse and pitchers who induce soft contact and don't like the endless pitching changes. But the professionals know more than I do have made it pretty clear they think velo rules.

And, to bring it back to the topic, that kind of hard throwing is why we're not going to see the return of every team having a guy who posts a 70G/110 IP kind of line. I think to make it work in a modern context, you'd have to have a couple guys who you're comfortable with on the mound in pressure situations -- so that if Stopper A pitches 2-3 innings on Monday, he gets a day, preferably two, off, and Stopper B is on duty. So maybe you have two guys with 50 G/100 IP, and each gets 15-20 saves.

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Old 04-14-2017, 07:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by frangipard View Post
The lowest ERA of Mark Buerhle's career was 3.59. He was a reliable starter, never dominant. Greg Maddux was last dominant sixteen years ago. Hoffman had his last dominant season eight years ago, so I guess he slips in, barely.
Buerhle was a #1 ace on any staff. He's a potential HOFer. His ERA+ is 117 for his career so he was much better than the league average. He's a HOF candidate. Maddux is in the HOF and would be great today. Hoffman probably will be in the HOF and a hitter today won't hit his change up either.

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Fair point; but the fact that 86-87 makes him one of the softest tossers in the league kind of makes my point. Thirty years ago, that was average. Steve Carlton was considered a great power pitcher throwing in the low-90s. The league average has risen from 89 to 92 just in the last 16 years.
Carlton in the HOF because he had a slider no one could hit. If a guy is throwing 89 but has good movement, control, and good secondary pitches he's going to get batters out with far more regularity than a guy throwing 92 who doesn't. It's not about how fast the pitch is, it's how fast it looks to the batter. Further, velocity is probably up because pitchers aren't expected to pitch as far into the game as they were 30 years ago. Tell Dave Steib he only has to go six innings and I'll bet anything his average velocity would have been higher.

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And yet every team in the majors has decided that running one hard thrower after the other gives them their best chance to win in the late innings.
Teams with the lead in the 9th win as many games now by percentage as they did in the past.

To the point about stoppers, I'm of the belief that if you have tying or go ahead runs on base late in the game you should have your best guy out there to kill the rally. If you're up by two runs to start the ninth, frankly if a guy has any competency and throws strikes he should be able to get three outs before he gives up two or three runs. Late inning relievers get in trouble time and time again because they're wild, probably because they're trying throw the ball through the catcher rather than to him.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by CMH View Post
Sorry this thread is frustrating and does a lot of what I hate about these types of questions.

The op wants to know the difference in stopper and closer and instead of getting an answer relative to the game we are playing, the answers relate to real world MLB.

That doesn't answer the question for OOTP gamers. And it's how we run into the continuous issue of how the bullpen is utilized in OOTP.

I love this game but I'm beyond frustrated seeing a lefty specialist give up a tying home run to a right handed hitter when there are healthy, well-rested right handers in the pen.

How does OOTP use Stopper vs Closer?

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Except there is no clear definition of a stopper. It's a myth. A better name would be "finisher". Mike Marshall was unique and may have been the only stopper because of innings and appearances. Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage were much closer to closers than so-called stoppers. Same with Bruce Sutter, Hrabosky etc.

The thing they all had in common was finishing games and they picked up wins losses saves and blown saves. Since they pitched in so many losses they weren't stopping all the time. It was all about the strategy of the day being "go with your starter", then let someone else finish.
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Old 04-14-2017, 08:46 PM   #51
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Except there is no clear definition of a stopper. It's a myth. A better name would be "finisher". Mike Marshall was unique and may have been the only stopper because of innings and appearances. Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage were much closer to closers than so-called stoppers. Same with Bruce Sutter, Hrabosky etc.

The thing they all had in common was finishing games and they picked up wins losses saves and blown saves. Since they pitched in so many losses they weren't stopping all the time. It was all about the strategy of the day being "go with your starter", then let someone else finish.
This is incorrect, Gossage, Fingers and Sutter were Stoppers, granted they got old and just couldn't handle the load they once could all of these guys (In the mid to late 70's even into the early 80's) were routinely going 100+ IP a year on and averaging 1.5+ IP per outing, It's pretty simple math really! Mike Marshall was just the most extreme example of the Stopper Role so comparing anyone to him is kinda crazy.

Stopper was nothing more than a phrase coined for the guy who finished games, but this isn't a debate , the OP asked what the difference between the roles was, and that has been answered. They pitch more often, in more situations and for longer stints! So everyone have a great day!
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:36 PM   #52
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So does anyone know if the closer usage Setting is set to normal approximately what will be the league high on saves?
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:16 PM   #53
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So does anyone know if the closer usage Setting is set to normal approximately what will be the league high on saves?
I just simmed 7 seasons in the default MLB game with closer usage set to normal and the league leaders in saves was in the range of 21-29 with one outlier at 35. Generally it was in the 22-25 range.
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:34 PM   #54
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I just simmed 7 seasons in the default MLB game with closer usage set to normal and the league leaders in saves was in the range of 21-29 with one outlier at 35. Generally it was in the 22-25 range.
Thank you this is very helpful to me thanks again
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:39 PM   #55
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Here's another interesting article that examines the difference between the stopper/fireman and how closers are used today - and proposes some new stats to measure reliever effectiveness.

The Goose Egg
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:25 PM   #56
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Here's another interesting article that examines the difference between the stopper/fireman and how closers are used today - and proposes some new stats to measure reliever effectiveness.

The Goose Egg
That's a great article and I like the concept of the Goose Egg.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:31 PM   #57
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That was a really good article
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:58 PM   #58
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Most excellent read
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:54 PM   #59
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Good article. Kind of similarly, I've always argued that part of the problem with judging relief pitchers is not just saves; but, the way E.R.A. is calculated.

I think it would reflect performance much more if inherited runners who score were "fractioned" off/assigned partly to the pitcher who put them on base and the pitcher who "allowed" them to score. So, if a pitcher comes in with a runner on 3rd, and he scores, the reliever should be charged with 0.25 runs, and the starter with 0.75 runs. If the runner was on 2nd when he entered, 0.5 runs to both, etc.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:19 PM   #60
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