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Old 10-28-2004, 07:21 PM   #1
Aordolin
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Closer use.. saves issue from 6.11

I posted about this in the general section but the more I am playing the more I think this is an issue and thought I should post it here too. Either a bug or with the logic programing for how the game uses closers. What I am seeing is an abnormal number of saves from setup men in the bullpen. My league is a 16 team league with the league leaders in saves at the 20-30 mark when before it was 30-40+. The team save totals look realistic with most being in the 50+ range. On all teams the setup man has atleast 10 saves and most closer to 20 (if it was a decent team) which is a little less than the closer got. The closer was not hurt, nor was there significant injuries to the staff to make you think the closer would be used abnormally. Nor was there a reason (in most cases) for the closer to lose his job because of ineffectiveness. Alot of the time the setup man wasnt all that good (not good enough to be closer games reguarly) The 2nd setup man had normal statistics compared to past seasons ive simmed as well as the rest of the bullpen, though there may have been a few more saves then you might have seen before the patch.

Im using the same schedule I have been using for a number of seasons that produced the results I wanted for saves so the only change made was the 6.11 patch. I simmed 5 seasons just to be sure it was not a fluke season but I have gotton similar results everytime. I havent seen any kind of setting to change this so I hope it can be looked into. There is nto alot of reason to have a closer role if hes only going to be used half the time. The closer imo should be getting the ball atleast 90% of the save chances. If he isnt that good he shouldnt be a closer.
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Old 10-28-2004, 09:43 PM   #2
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Just curious... what do the closers v/s setup men save totals look like month-by-month? I mean, if the closer has numbers like 1-2-6-7-6-8 and the setup man has numbers like 7-6-1-2-0-1, that strongly implies that there was a role change mid-season. But if the closer is always around 5-6 saves a month and the setup guy is always around 2-3, that probably means the AI is using the closer differently.

There is a note in the 6.10 readme about "Improved bullpen usage AI". I wonder if that means using the closer in more non-save situations... or not always using the closer for "cheap" 3-run lead saves.
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Old 11-03-2004, 01:56 PM   #3
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Bumping this up agian until I get some sort of official response on this issue. Unless your going to say the results im getting are working as intended, which if thats this case then this game has lost a major part of statisical realism.

Sim Results in this thread because I dont feel like posting them agian
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:49 AM   #4
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I've just started a career league in 1977, and even though I'm only 10 games into the season, I'm seeing the exact same kind of behavior. In the AL, the top save getter so far is a closer - number two and three are middle relievers. I went and checked all the saves for the relievers and they were all 3 run leads in the 8th inning or later.

What's the point in having a closer if he doesn't get used in save situations, even "cheap" save situations? I too hope we can get some kind of official response as to whether this was an intentional AI "enhancement" or if it's a bug. I've been waiting and waiting for OOTP6 to get completely bugfixed before I finally started my league - thought 6.11 would finally allow me to get started. But for me, this is a dealbreaker. My closers are never going to have realistic stats!

Sigh...
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:08 AM   #5
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I agree, my long running (16yr.) solo league is showing about a 60-40 split in saves even when the closer is effective and not tired. previously it would be 80-90% to the main closer. A possible solution could be in the team strategies menu if we could designate "X" pitcher as closer unless injured or tired just as we can say "never pinch hit for this player"
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW
I agree, my long running (16yr.) solo league is showing about a 60-40 split in saves even when the closer is effective and not tired. previously it would be 80-90% to the main closer. A possible solution could be in the team strategies menu if we could designate "X" pitcher as closer unless injured or tired just as we can say "never pinch hit for this player"
Sounds like a good workaround in the meantime, except we'd have to do that for every closer on every team in the league if we wanted it to fix more than just our team's stats. And I imagine as soon as the computer AI took control of the other teams again, it would just readjust them back to normal.

Has Steve or anyone else from OOTP commented on this in other Closer/Save Issue threads? I'm gonna go search...
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
A possible solution could be in the team strategies menu if we could designate "X" pitcher as closer unless injured or tired just as we can say "never pinch hit for this player
I dont think this is solution that would really work much. It wont work at all in DH leagues. The problem is the closer is never getting in the game, not being removed and replaced by a setup man or reliever. normal baseball logic is if your starter pitches 7 innings, your 8th inning guy is a setup and 9th is closer assuming its a save situation. Thats not happening here. To answer the question about any official response to this problem, there has been none at all, which frankly is quite irritating.
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Old 11-07-2004, 05:32 AM   #8
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Here are a few more stats on this issue...I just completed another season in my fictional league. This was my 13th season for this league and ever since 6.11 came out, my saves have looked very similar to this season. I sim all the games one day at a time.

First the league leaders in saves and their role on the pitching staff and then also who had the 2nd highest total for that particular team and their role:

23 CIN closer - 4 (1st MR slot)
20 SD closer - 7 (1st setup)
19 SF closer - 9 (1st setup)
19 CHN closer - 12 (1st MR)
18 MON closer - 3 (1st MR)
16 TEX AAA SP - 7 (2nd MR), 5 (1st MR), 5 (closer)
****obviously TEX underwent some changes mid-season****
16 PIT closer - 9 (1st MR), 8 (2nd MR)
16 ATL closer - 16 (1st setup)
16 ATL SETUP
16 STL closer - 7 (1st MR)
15 PHI closer - 10 (1st setup)
15 SEA SETUP - 7 (closer)
14 ARI closer - 7 (2nd MR)
14 BOS SETUP - 12 (closer)
****this is my team and I made no changes throughout the entire season to my relievers & had no injuries****
14 COL closer - 9 (2nd MR)


I also looked at the way the AI set up their pitching staffs. Very interesting results, and also not very realistic at all. I have 30 teams in my league and here is the breakdown:

ANA (7 man staff) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
ARI (8) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
ATL (7) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
BAL (8) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
BOS (11) - 5 SP - 1 mopup - 3 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
CHA (9) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 2 setup - 1 closer
CHN (8) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
CIN (7) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
CLE (7) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
COL (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
DET (7) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
FLO (9) - 5 SP - 3 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
HOU (7) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 0 setup - 0 closer
KC (8) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 2 setup - 1 closer
LA (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
MIL (8) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
MIN (8) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
MON (9) - 5 SP - 3 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
NYY (7) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
NYM (8) - 5 SP - 3 MR - 0 setup - 0 closer
OAK (8) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 2 setup - 1 closer
PHI (7) - 5 SP - 0 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
PIT (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
SD (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
SF (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
SEA (9) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 2 setup - 1 closer
STL (9) - 5 SP - 3 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer
TB (9) - 5 SP - 1 MR - 2 setup - 1 closer
TEX (9) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 1 setup - 1 closer
TOR (8) - 5 SP - 2 MR - 0 setup - 1 closer

Quick breakdown of staff size:

11 man staff - 1 team (human controlled)
10 - 0 teams
9 - 12 teams
8 - 9 teams
7 - 8 teams

My ERA settings are:
Pitcher's endurance - NORMAL
Use relievers - NOT OFTEN

I set the use relievers to SELDOM at the beginning of the season to try lower the number of appearances by relievers, but all this created was a mass amount of CG by the starters so I switched to NOT OFTEN after 20 games or so. My league leader in appearances had 98 games pitched for 114.0 IP. My league leader for IP for starters was 282.2 IP. Both are probably a bit high, but not too bad when you compare these numbers to the real 2004 MLB season.....the league leader in appearances had 89 and the IP leader was at 255.0.

I know this is only 1 season worth of data so the sample size is not real big, but this is an average season for me ever since 6.11. Take the data however you wish, but I thought it might help in some way.

Last edited by Jabs; 11-07-2004 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 11-07-2004, 08:19 AM   #9
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Well I know how to fix the staff size issue at least...

I had posted in the Suggestions forum that there should be a "Pitching Staff Size" era setting you could set, when someone informed me that "Use Relievers" already does much the same thing. I have my Use RP at "Often" and all the AI teams carry 10 pitchers to my 11, but if I change it to "Very Often", all of a sudden everybody has 11. (So I'll be making that change for my next season...)

Now, it could be somewhat counterproductive, if Use RP also does what I would intuitively guess it does: control how quick a hook the AI uses, especially with relievers. I think this is why I turned it down a notch in the first place, but I think the extra body will do more to eliminate the 120-pitch relief outing than a quick/slow hook.

Not that insanely long relief appearances are the thing you're trying to fix... ... but it's good info nonetheless.
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Old 11-07-2004, 05:26 PM   #10
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jmm-

Thanks for the info...I'll also be trying that heading into next season.
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:31 PM   #11
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In my solo leagues it is almost as though the computer is reading my setup man as closer and vice versa on the human controlled team----the computer controlled teams are relatively normal, but everytime I check the box score on a game with the human team involved the setup man is getting the save and the closer is setting up---numerous times the box score has indicated the closer starting the ninth inning and retiring the only batter he faces only to have the setup man replace him and record the save.
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Old 11-11-2004, 06:33 PM   #12
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Actually, I played through an entire season with "Use Relievers" set at "Very Often" as per the suggestion mentioned earlier in this thread. I played through that season in manager mode AB by AB.

And, as anticipated, all CPU run teams carried 11 pitchers on their roster.
Also, I am happy to report that it seemed to me that the computer manager did not really use a significantly quicker hook in pulling pitchers. Rather, it seemed to leave pitchers in just about as long as with the 'often' setting with the noteable exception that starters on opposing teams were almost invariably pulled after allowing 5 earned runs (assuming that they did so early in the game). This was not a problem for me, because in the league that I have set up offensive totals are not very high and, therefore, giving up 5 earned runs was actually a pretty good time for the starter to be taken out of the game. I don't recall whether the AI took out at starter that gave up 5 earned runs when the score was 5-5 or if, in fact, I actually ran into that exact situation during that season.

Overall, I felt very good about how the AI made its choices with "Use Relievers" set at "Very Often" and am using that same setting for my next season as well.
I haven't done any extensive testing on this; I'm just relaying the experience that I had...so I can't in any way guarantee that others would feel the same about what they find with a "Very Often" setting for "Use Relievers".

One final note is that when I got to the post-season (actually, one day before the end of the season so that it was certain to actually take effect for post-season roster selections) I turned the setting back to "often" so that the playoff teams would carry only 10 pitchers on their post-season roster [since there are more days off in post-season play and since most teams use a 4-pitcher rotation in the playoffs...actually, I changed that part too: set the pitching rotations to 4-pitchers. All that seemed to work well for me for the post-season.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:10 PM   #13
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I'd have to agree with Filthy Slider on his assessment and thank jmm for his suggestion on fixing staff sizes. I too just finished a season with "Use Reliever" set on Very Often and found the results to be right in line with Filthy's season results.

Now I have one suggestion.....these should be the results you get when the "Use Reliever" setting is set at Normal instead of having to use such an extreme setting (Very Often) to get normal results. The way it is set up now, there is only one direction in which you can adjust this setting.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:57 PM   #14
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That's interesting, Filthy... I hadn't considered changing it for the postseason.

In my league, the AI always seems to use a 3-man rotation in the playoffs, so I wonder if I should turn it down more than one notch, until the AI has a 9-man postseason staff.

On the other hand, I'm hesistant to change it at all for the postseason, if the non-playoff teams are going to start waiving relievers they would normally keep to use as #5 and #6 next season...

So... I dunno... I'm torn, I guess
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Old 11-12-2004, 11:16 PM   #15
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Just to bump this thread up and get it back on track until someone who works on this game responds. Regardless on how you use the relievers.. I use very often on reliever use, I act as GM on all teams so all teams are set to human manager. I maintain the lineups, rosters, injuries, etc, and sim one day at a time and make adjustements as necessary. The saves totals are wrong they are broke and they need to be fix, Hello? Anyone going to step up and respond to this? Its been 2 weeks now and all I have seen is from a moderator in another thread saying this was going to be posted about in beta thread.

Sorry if I seem crabby about this but well I am.. mad. The numbers are not realistic or in line with what I am getting before. My only option is to use an older patch which fixed a number of other issues I was having.. so what do I do? Completely torpedeo any consistancy with my league and just accept that everyone reliever in the league gets to play closer when they want or play with the bugs I was having before but atleast gave me statisical consistancy. Both options are unacceptable.
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Old 11-13-2004, 12:14 AM   #16
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How about disabling waivers for the duration of the post-season? Then, waivers could be turned back on when the era is re-set to go back to 11 pitchers on the roster.

er...that was in response to jmm's latest post...I don't really have any advice to offer on the closer issue.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:37 PM   #17
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I've just completed game 78 of my solo-league season and have not encountered any unexpected results as per closer use and save totals...there are some teams with weak closers who have their saves a bit more spread out, but on teams with strong closers the closer is getting about 80-90% or so of the saves.

Also, I play out each of my games AB by AB...not sure if that could have anythign to do with it since the other games of the league on that day get simmed while I am playing mine.

but, I do hope you get it figured out and/or addressed to get the game to work out right for you because that would be irritating to have those kind of results as were posted earlier in this thread
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:52 PM   #18
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I have encountered the splitting of saves. The primary problem that is in effect is that the player designated as a closer has few appearances (save opportunities mostly), but the main setup guy (if he's good), is getting alot of appearances, and many are save opportunities. I'm not complaining as long as he doesn't blow the game, but whats the point of having the role designation if half the time he doesn't get into the situation he's designated for?
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Old 11-21-2004, 01:54 AM   #19
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another week.. time for another bump. Steve or Markus going to address this?
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Old 11-21-2004, 02:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aordolin
Hello? Anyone going to step up and respond to this? Its been 2 weeks now and all I have seen is from a moderator in another thread saying this was going to be posted about in beta thread.
I have to agree with Aordolin on this....what is posting this in a beta thread going to do? So now the beta testers will run their own tests to confirm this? I think the sheer number of responses regarding this issue should be enough to confirm it. Obviously it is a problem, and no one seems to have an answer.

I guess in the meantime, I will continue to watch my "setup man" get more saves than my designated "closer" each season.
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