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Old 12-29-2017, 11:43 PM   #161
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He Was A Somebody!

Known as someone you didn't want to tangle with, Jimmy Mallish generally didn't look for trouble. He was the sort of fellow you gave a little more space if you encountered him in a crowded Hull City, Quebec pub.


Jimmy kept to himself and was remembered as a quiet guy who liked to take a drink, then return home to his wife and four children. But Jimmy also liked to fight. Not a bar room brawler, he expressed his aggression in the boxing ring. In 1971 he crowned both Quebec's Golden Gloves champ and Canada's amateur middleweight king.


He caught the eye of local boxing impresario, Vern Stevenson who did something that, on the surface, appeared totally illogical...he renamed Mallish "Jimmy Nobody"!


Jimmy Nobody soon became part of Vince Bagnato's stable (Bagnato is best remembered for putting heavyweight Bob Felstein in a top hat and tails). Bagnato believed the boxing was part sport and part entertainment. He noted, "there are more nobodies than there are somebodies". Bagnato planned a campaign to promote Jimmy that included buttons reading, "Be A Somebody, Support Nobody".


Local boxing scribes ate the angle up, "Jimmy Nobody wanting to be somebody" and gave him coverage in their columns. Thus it appeared that Jimmy was on his way.


His first bout, nevertheless, was a managerial misjudgment of major proportion. Pitted against ring savvy Joe Durelle in a scheduled ten rounder, Nobody was counted out in the fifth. He bounced back against Alvin Gibbs, who was making his pro debut, winning a four frame decision.


With a record of 1-1 some strings are pulled, and he's on the undercard for a six rounder with the Ali-Chuvalo NABF title match in Vancouver's Pacific Coliseum in May 1972. Jimmy outpoints his opponent, Les Vegas (gotta love the name!) then goes 2 and 1 in his next three bouts.


This takes us to December 1972, and Nobody's facing Canadian icon, Donato Paduano. The fight's a ten-rounder, but it's being held in Jimmy's hometown, Hull City, before a highly partisan crowd. The local press hyped the contest as "The Slugger versus The Boxer". Nobody was the former.


Although Jimmy came out strong and won the first round, it was a mismatch. From the second round on, Paduano took command. He put Nobody on the canvas three times before referee Gaby Mancini stopped it in the fifth.


Still the local boxing writers gave Jimmy credit for having "heart". He wasn't counted out despite being floored three times. The general consensus was that he was "green", but with the proper guidance, he had a future as a boxer.


Sadly, that future was never to be realized. A few weeks after the Paduano match, Jimmy and two friends had a night on the town. They entered a local restaurant after closing time and a scuffle ensued. A waiter struck Jimmy on the head with a softball bat. Two days latter he died.


Jimmy's wife, Lorna, delivered an impromptu epilogue. "I wish he hadn't become a boxer so everyone would have left him alone. They always tried to goad him into fights."


Following Mallish's funeral, there was an attempt to help his widow and her four young children with a couple of fundraisers, but it soon subsided as people moved on.


Lorna Mallish made the definitive statement when she opined, "my husband couldn't get insurance because he was playing with death every time he stepped into the ring."


These are some the things you see when you dare to lift a log in the forest.

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Old 12-29-2017, 11:49 PM   #162
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Jimmy Nobody

The rating is based upon the fact that Jimmy Nobody was a southpaw and gets an extra boost of 2 in his CP when fighting orthodox opponents.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:24 PM   #163
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The Great White Hoax

As African-Americans began to dominate the division in the late 1950s and consolidated there preeminence by the late 1970s, there was a reemergence of the "Great White Hope". Jerry Quarry, Duane Bobick, and Gerry Cooney gave encouragement to those who sublimely were inclined the inject race into boxing.


Then, of course, were the faux "sluggers". Guys like Harley Breshears, Bowie Adams, and Terry Krueger (all if whom I've rated here who were essentially frauds, building high knockout rations beating up a lot of nobodies.


Yet, in my eyes, the greatest hoax was perpetuated by LaMar Clark.


Handled by Marv Jenson and a stable mate of middleweight champ Gene Fullmer, Clark, a Utah chicken farmer, ran off an impressive (on paper) string of forty-two consecutive knockouts from 1958 to 1960 without a loss. This brought him not only notoriety in the local Utah press but also garnered him some ink in The Ring and Boxing Illustrated.

LaMar was relatively small for a heavyweight, even by late 1950s standards. Only 5'10" and usually weighing in at the low to mid-180s, you to ultimately wonder where that power came from.


It was nothing more than a mirage.


The overwhelming majority of LaMar's "victims" had only one professional fight...their knockout loss to Clark. On several occasions he fought as many as five opponents in one night...kayoing all of them.
Guys like Kooey Garcia, Treach Phillips, Sain Thompson, and Ox Anderson laced up the mitts, picked up a paycheck, and were able to tell their grandkids that they once boxed professionally.


Alas, the clock struck Midnight, and Clark's carriage turned in to a pumpkin. He hooked up with transplanted Dominican Bartolo Soni, a fattened up light heavy who sported a record of 12-2-1 as a New York City prelim fighter. Clark led on all the judge's cards and even put Soni down in the eighth. But after that he had nothing left, an Bartolo kayoed LaMar in the next frame.


After a three month hiatus, Clark faced a less than peak conditioned Pete Rademacher. Looking for a workout, Rademacher floored LaMar twice in the first round and just with him for the next nine. In the tenth, Pete opened up, and the fight was stopped. Nat Fleischer of The Ring called the bout a "mismatch".


After a nine month layoff, Clark fought the unheralded Chuck Wilburn whom he knocked out in two. But the "magic" wasn't back for LaMar. He travelled to Louisville to take on Cassius Clay who was 5-0-0. Clark took a terrific beating for two rounds with Clay severely breaking LaMar's nose. This was Clark's last professional fight.


Here's a tape of the slaughter (in error, they display the "fourth" round as the final frame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1TBZXtFsAU


Forgive me for the wordy narrative, but I felt it necessary to challenge existing ratings of Clark by both the TBCB3 DB Team (Team) and the Day Council (DC). With all due respect, I feel that both fell prey the Clark's mythical punching power.


In the final analysis the Team and the DC are not that far apart. The DC makes Clark a little tougher. The Team gives LaMar a CF of 7/9 and HP of 8. The DC concurs with the CF, it raises his HP to 10.


Okay, what's the justification? Whom did he defeat possessing a CF of 7/9? More importantly, who were the "iron jaws" he kayoed to legitimize a HP of 8, let alone 10? Look at his record! There's simply nothing there to justify these high ratings.


Bartolo Soni declared that LaMar was the "hardest puncher" he ever faced. Looking at Soni's record he didn't face any premier sluggers. More telling is Rademacher's assessment after nearly ten round in the ring with Clark. When asked if Clark ever hurt him his response was "No". Clay/Ali was asked the same question and said he felt a "sting" once when LaMar punched him in the chest.


While there are other nuances, the major changes I made was to reduce Clark's CF to 5/6 and his HP to 5. I also raised his Endurance to 6.


I simmed all three of Clark's ratings against the Team's rating for Rademacher and Clay/Ali and found that mine was closest to reality.
In each bout with Clay/Ali I set both at Top Condition and used pre-prime for Clay/Ali with the career stage Beginning. For Rademacher, I gave Clark Top Conditon and Pete Undertrained.


With my ratings, Rademacher usually took Clark out in the later rounds while Clay/Ali stopped him most frequently between the first and third rounds. On occasion, Clark did kayo Pete and decked Clay/Ali for an eight count, but these were outliers.


Using the Team and DC ratings, LaMar had a better than even chance to kayo Rademacher. While Ali won, LaMar often put him on the canvas a couple of times. Moreover, Ali won he was beaten up by LaMar in the process


Chris posted a number of years ago that the Sub-Zero Template was inspired by the need to explain LaMar Clark.


Of course all this can just be dismissed as me being "anal". Then again, it does have something to do with ensuring that a game has some reasonable degree of accuracy. Some folks would be just as happy playing Downey's Main Event.


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Old 01-28-2018, 06:28 PM   #164
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LaMar Clark Rating

Here's my take on Clark.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:54 PM   #165
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LaMar Clark

Career 1958 to 1961


43 wins (42 by Kayo) 3 lost (all by Kayo)
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:57 PM   #166
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LaMar's "Last Stand"

Clark's "reality check" in Louisville, Kentucky
April 19, 1961
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Old 01-28-2018, 08:14 PM   #167
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sounds like a career of tomato cans to me. Ali was good for a REASON....
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Old 01-28-2018, 08:34 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professordp View Post
As African-Americans began to dominate the division in the late 1950s and consolidated there preeminence by the late 1970s, there was a reemergence of the "Great White Hope". Jerry Quarry, Duane Bobick, and Gerry Cooney gave encouragement to those who sublimely were inclined the inject race into boxing.


Then, of course, were the faux "sluggers". Guys like Harley Breshears, Bowie Adams, and Terry Krueger (all if whom I've rated here who were essentially frauds, building high knockout rations beating up a lot of nobodies.


Yet, in my eyes, the greatest hoax was perpetuated by LaMar Clark.


Handled by Marv Jenson and a stable mate of middleweight champ Gene Fullmer, Clark, a Utah chicken farmer, ran off an impressive (on paper) string of forty-two consecutive knockouts from 1958 to 1960 without a loss. This brought him not only notoriety in the local Utah press but also garnered him some ink in The Ring and Boxing Illustrated.

LaMar was relatively small for a heavyweight, even by late 1950s standards. Only 5'10" and usually weighing in at the low to mid-180s, you to ultimately wonder where that power came from.


It was nothing more than a mirage.


The overwhelming majority of LaMar's "victims" had only one professional fight...their knockout loss to Clark. On several occasions he fought as many as five opponents in one night...kayoing all of them.
Guys like Kooey Garcia, Treach Phillips, Sain Thompson, and Ox Anderson laced up the mitts, picked up a paycheck, and were able to tell their grandkids that they once boxed professionally.


Alas, the clock struck Midnight, and Clark's carriage turned in to a pumpkin. He hooked up with transplanted Dominican Bartolo Soni, a fattened up light heavy who sported a record of 12-2-1 as a New York City prelim fighter. Clark led on all the judge's cards and even put Soni down in the eighth. But after that he had nothing left, an Bartolo kayoed LaMar in the next frame.


After a three month hiatus, Clark faced a less than peak conditioned Pete Rademacher. Looking for a workout, Rademacher floored LaMar twice in the first round and just with him for the next nine. In the tenth, Pete opened up, and the fight was stopped. Nat Fleischer of The Ring called the bout a "mismatch".


After a nine month layoff, Clark fought the unheralded Chuck Wilburn whom he knocked out in two. But the "magic" wasn't back for LaMar. He travelled to Louisville to take on Cassius Clay who was 5-0-0. Clark took a terrific beating for two rounds with Clay severely breaking LaMar's nose. This was Clark's last professional fight.


Here's a tape of the slaughter (in error, they display the "fourth" round as the final frame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1TBZXtFsAU


Forgive me for the wordy narrative, but I felt it necessary to challenge existing ratings of Clark by both the TBCB3 DB Team (Team) and the Day Council (DC). With all due respect, I feel that both fell prey the Clark's mythical punching power.


In the final analysis the Team and the DC are not that far apart. The DC makes Clark a little tougher. The Team gives LaMar a CF of 7/9 and HP of 8. The DC concurs with the CF, it raises his HP to 10.


Okay, what's the justification? Whom did he defeat possessing a CF of 7/9? More importantly, who were the "iron jaws" he kayoed to legitimize a HP of 8, let alone 10? Look at his record! There's simply nothing there to justify these high ratings.


Bartolo Soni declared that LaMar was the "hardest puncher" he ever faced. Looking at Soni's record he didn't face any premier sluggers. More telling is Rademacher's assessment after nearly ten round in the ring with Clark. When asked if Clark ever hurt him his response was "No". Clay/Ali was asked the same question and said he felt a "sting" once when LaMar punched him in the chest.


While there are other nuances, the major changes I made was to reduce Clark's CF to 5/6 and his HP to 5. I also raised his Endurance to 6.


I simmed all three of Clark's ratings against the Team's rating for Rademacher and Clay/Ali and found that mine was closest to reality.
In each bout with Clay/Ali I set both at Top Condition and used pre-prime for Clay/Ali with the career stage Beginning. For Rademacher, I gave Clark Top Conditon and Pete Undertrained.


With my ratings, Rademacher usually took Clark out in the later rounds while Clay/Ali stopped him most frequently between the first and third rounds. On occasion, Clark did kayo Pete and decked Clay/Ali for an eight count, but these were outliers.


Using the Team and DC ratings, LaMar had a better than even chance to kayo Rademacher. While Ali won, LaMar often put him on the canvas a couple of times. Moreover, Ali won he was beaten up by LaMar in the process


Chris posted a number of years ago that the Sub-Zero Template was inspired by the need to explain LaMar Clark.


Of course all this can just be dismissed as me being "anal". Then again, it does have something to do with ensuring that a game has some reasonable degree of accuracy. Some folks would be just as happy playing Downey's Main Event.

Enjoyed very much your take on LaMar, Professor! I took a look at his record on BoxRec and I do feel your correct with your assessment of TBCB3 rating. I don't have the DC rating to look at. You have me curious to see how yours and the TBCB3 ratings would stack up against each other in some replay testing.
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:25 PM   #169
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Enjoyed very much your take on LaMar, Professor! I took a look at his record on BoxRec and I do feel your correct with your assessment of TBCB3 rating. I don't have the DC rating to look at. You have me curious to see how yours and the TBCB3 ratings would stack up against each other in some replay testing.

Actually, I ran all three (my rating, TBCB3, and Day Council). I found that the DC rating was farthest from reality. The TBCB3 was less of an outlier in terms of final outcome. Nevertheless, with their respective ratings, Rademacher still was knocked out disproportionately.


Giving LaMar a CF of 7/9 versus Pete's 9/8 wasn't that critical in the end. The key elements I found were twofold. Pete had an HP of 6 while Clark was 2 levels higher at 8. Also, Pete's KD/KO rating was 4/5 while Clark's was 3/3. This gives Clark a stronger chin which simply can't be justified given the quality of opponents each man faced.


As far as the Clay/Ali sims, it took longer with the TBCB3 rating than it did with mine to put Clark away. Moreover, while not to the extent as with the Day Council, the TBCB3 did often have Ali with cuts and swollen eyes, as well as an occasional trip to the canvas.


Simming with my ratings, Clay/Ali finished the match unmarked and "pretty".


Some comments on my delving into ratings have been unfair and, at times, disingenuous. It's not a matter of "scrutinizing" thousands of ratings. That's not the issue.


But when a fighter has been over-rated or the ratings are so far removed from reality, I think it should be brought to the attention of the forum members. This thread, if you read it through, is replete with examples where this is the case.


As I said, if we take the ratings given to us as Gospel, we all should be happy just playing Downey's Main Event.

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Old 01-28-2018, 09:36 PM   #170
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sounds like a career of tomato cans to me. Ali was good for a REASON....
I think you might be missing the major point here. We're presented with ratings based on KO ratio. And that's all fine and dandy...with one big exception. What was the quality of the fighter's opponents?


LaMar Clark and the ratings he received from both the TBCB3 and the Day Council underscore this problem. As far as your reference to Ali, I simply don't understand what you're talking about.


Outside of his bout with Clark, this really has nothing to do with Ali. It's all about how things like CF, HP, Endurance, KO/KD, etc. are transposed from a fighter's record.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:04 AM   #171
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There are numerous instances throughout boxing history of manufactured fighters building up terrific-looking records only to be exposed as fakes. Clark was certainly one of them and the team appears to have over-valued him in their assessment. I do think that even if you could rate every single fighter in a game perfectly so they would perform exactly as they did in real life, you'd eventually get bored with simply replaying history. There has to be a chance that even a really good B-Level fighter will lose to a C-Level fighter or even a D-Level fighter. Guys have off nights and plenty of pre-TV fighters climbed through the ropes in less than top form. Even Ali probably lost to Doug Jones and under different circumstances might have lost to Henry Cooper first time around. Some have argued that Joe Louis should have lost to Tommy Farr and Jersey Joe Walcott.

Enjoy your perspective on ratings, Prof.

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Old 01-29-2018, 04:17 PM   #172
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There are numerous instances throughout boxing history of manufactured fighters building up terrific-looking records only to be exposed as fakes. Clark was certainly one of them and the team appears to have over-valued him in their assessment. I do think that even if you could rate every single fighter in a game perfectly so they would perform exactly as they did in real life, you'd eventually get bored with simply replaying history. There has to be a chance that even a really good B-Level fighter will lose to a C-Level fighter or even a D-Level fighter. Guys have off nights and plenty of pre-TV fighters climbed through the ropes in less than top form. Even Ali probably lost to Doug Jones and under different circumstances might have lost to Henry Cooper first time around. Some have argued that Joe Louis should have lost to Tommy Farr and Jersey Joe Walcott.

Enjoy your perspective on ratings, Prof.

Cap

Thanks for the kind words, Cap!


For me it's not about replicating what actually happened. Remember Dr. Julian Compton's Data Boxing (circa 1978)? He had an aspect in his game that ensured that Liston knocked out Patterson in the first round. And it actually worked!


I also found Compton's game as entertaining as a root canal when compared to Title Bout.


I hope you're not thinking I don't want "play-in-the-joints". And I've never advocated "starting from scratch" and rerating all the boxers. I just want something that's believable in terms of results.


So if LaMar Clark manages to knockout young Cassius Clay, I can accept that. That's the fun of the game. If he does it consistently, there's trouble in River City!


Generally, I'm content with the TBCB3 ratings. Yet there are times where I believe they just threw a rating together for the sake of expediency.


So now we have thousands of ratings. Some are based on thoughtful analysis and too many on just getting something out the door.


I remember the late Danny Greyhawke once observing that when it comes to ratings for TBCB sometimes more is actually less.


In the end, I just want quality over quantity.

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Old 01-30-2018, 08:15 PM   #173
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Prof - I agree 100% with your assessment of Lamar Clark.You are spot on here.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:44 PM   #174
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Cheaper by the Pound

What would you do if a thirty-five year old, 400 pound Bible
salesman appeared on your doorstep? Well, if you were the madcap boxing impresario, Pat O'Grady, you'd convince him to become a professional boxer. And that's how Claude "Humphrey" McBride became a fighter.


Rather than go through an extended dissertation, I thought it more constructive to examine the highlights of his career...and there were a number of them!


The nickname, "Humphrey", comes from a character in the Joe Palooka comic strip, Humphrey Pennyworth, whom McBride emulated right down to the polka dot shorts and tank top. His middle name was actually Herman.


His very first opponent was Henry Glass in 1971 whom he kayoed in two. Seven years later, McBride closed out his career by again knocking Glass out in two rounds. I guess life can be a 360 degree experience.


He traded off his weight by fighting guys who had no ring experience like Baby Hughie and perennial punching bags like Sherman Goodman
(3-20-0) whom he fought four times. In short, virtually all his victories came against the lowest levels of Chris' Sub-Zero template.


He's in the Guinness World Record Book along with James Black for participating the heaviest combined professional boxing match. McBride weighed in at 340 while Black tipped the scales at 360. Sounds more like a sumo contest!


McBride NEVER fought Henry Hank. On February 5, 1972 he outpointed Chief Sonny Hanks in ten. Some reports erroneously state
that it was the great slugger Henry Hank...never happened! By the way, this was Chief Sonny's only pro fight, according to BoxRec.


The "high point" of his career was a majority ten round decision over Terry Daniels. According to press accounts, Daniels, who gave up more than seventy pounds to McBride, appeared to be sort of a funk for the fight's duration. The bout was staged in Oklahoma City, where "Humphrey" fought almost all of his matches. Subsequently, Daniels
wrote a letter to Boxing Illustrated charging he was the victim of a "hometown decision".


McBride was completely annihilated in three rounds by Buster Mathis for the "World Superheavyweight Championship" in 1972. The "title" was the creation of Boxing Illustrated's Lew Eskin and was never universally recognized.


Following the beating from Mathis, McBride's career pretty much went into a downward spiral. Third tier fighters like Jimmy Cross, Alvin "Blue" Lewis, and John Dino Denis all mopped the floor with him,


In 1973, McBride meet BoBo Bash in a bout the had a bizarre ending. Although outweighed by over seventy pounds, Bash was somehow able to shove Claude to the canvas in the second round. McBride hit his head of the ring apron, was knocked unconscious, and given a ten count by the ref.


In 1975, he staged a "comeback" of sorts with three consecutive kayos over nobodies and then took nearly two years off. Claude finished off where he started by knocking out the aforementioned Henry Glass. In 1978 at the age of forty-two he called it a career.


Now there are fighters who could hold their own in the boxing ring despite carrying excessive pounds. Tony Galento and Buster Mathis immediately come to mind. Then there's a tradition of grossly overweight "attractions", spanning from Tommy "Fatty" Langtry to Eric "Butterbean" Esch. Claude McBride's in this latter category.


The polka dot trunks and cap along with the role-playing as "Humphrey Pennyworth", in the end, defines McBride. His appeal rested more with being a curiosity than a boxer.


As far as using McBride in a simulation, I'd have him as Prime up to and including the Daniels fight. At that point he was in his mid-thirties. So was Ron Lyle when he got started...although I'm drawing any comparisons. After that, I'd fight him as Post-Prime.


Finally, he should be set as a "Hometown Favorite". Only three of his forty-four fights took place outside of Oklahoma.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:31 PM   #175
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Hey Prof-Always enjoy your ratings,but I need to take umbridge with your categorizing Blue Lewis as a third tier fighter.Afterall,Lewis was ranked in the top ten by Ring and did have a fight with Ali.Not sure why I posted this,but if I didn't defend Blue,who would ?Would you settle for "fringe contender"? Please keep these guys coming.They bring back such good memories of when I first started following this sport.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:38 PM   #176
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Hey Prof-Always enjoy your ratings,but I need to take umbridge with your categorizing Blue Lewis as a third tier fighter.Afterall,Lewis was ranked in the top ten by Ring and did have a fight with Ali.Not sure why I posted this,but if I didn't defend Blue,who would ?Would you settle for "fringe contender"? Please keep these guys coming.They bring back such good memories of when I first started following this sport.

Thanks for the kind comments! Yeah, I'd settle for "fringe contender" if we were talking about the "Blue" Lewis of the late sixties-early seventies. But when he climbed into the ring with McBride it was 1973 and past his prime at age thirty; he retired four months later.


Yet you make a good point...I'll meet you halfway and classify him as "second tier" heavyweight (LOL).
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:56 PM   #177
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Dementia Pugilistica

In another thread I had an exchange about brain damage and protective headgear. Since the 1920s, dementia pugilistica has been recognized as a condition suffered by boxers.


Here's the definition:


"A condition seen especially in boxers, caused by repeated cerebral concussions and characterized by weakness in the lower limbs, unsteadiness of gait, slowness of muscular movements, hand tremors, hesitancy of speech, and cognitive impairment."


Jerry Quarry is perhaps the most famous who suffered from dementia pugilistica given the fact that he died from it at age fifty-three. Yet few remember it (or wish to talk about it) these days.


I'm refining a rating which I hope to post shortly on another boxer who met a similar fate.

Last edited by professordp; 02-15-2018 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:57 PM   #178
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I'm afraid that I have to be included in the group that wishes not to talk about it.I've had the book Hard Knocks about Jerry on the bookshelf for two years and can't bring myself to read it.It's such a sad case and certainly not an isolated one,not even within the Quarry family. I know that nobody forces someone to choose boxing as a profession,but should we,as fans,feel culpable in any way for what has happened to these men that we cheered for,and in some cases,idolized ? I can so clearly see Quarry masterfully defeating Mac Foster,Earnie Shavers and Ronnie Lyle.Conversely,the second Frazier,second Ali and Norton fights are also sickenly vivid as well.Athletes in all sports notoriously stay around too long after their skills have diminished.Unfortunately in boxing,the price that is paid for that mistake can be deadly.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:08 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDES View Post
I'm afraid that I have to be included in the group that wishes not to talk about it.I've had the book Hard Knocks about Jerry on the bookshelf for two years and can't bring myself to read it.It's such a sad case and certainly not an isolated one,not even within the Quarry family. I know that nobody forces someone to choose boxing as a profession,but should we,as fans,feel culpable in any way for what has happened to these men that we cheered for,and in some cases,idolized ? I can so clearly see Quarry masterfully defeating Mac Foster,Earnie Shavers and Ronnie Lyle.Conversely,the second Frazier,second Ali and Norton fights are also sickenly vivid as well.Athletes in all sports notoriously stay around too long after their skills have diminished.Unfortunately in boxing,the price that is paid for that mistake can be deadly.

No, I don't think we're necessarily culpable. My point is similar to yours. I do think, nevertheless, that we should take into consideration what happens to them in the end.


Anyone, who in my opinion, fails to recognize the incidence of dementia pugilistica as a result of a boxing career is walking around with blinders.


Ali was my hero. Seeing him after he retired broke my heart. Many try divorce it from all the punches he took during his career...they're just fooling themselves.


And I totally agree with you that no one compels someone to become a boxer. Yet, it's always been a sport where the lower classes have seen it as a quick step-up to fame and fortune.


I'm hard-pressed to think of any other sport so corrupt, disorganized, and indifferent to their fellow human beings as boxing.


Then again maybe I've watched Requiem for a Heavyweight, On the Waterfront, and The Harder They Fall too many times.

Last edited by professordp; 02-16-2018 at 12:10 AM.
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